Finnish Treatment of Soviet POWs

[Uncle Joe]

[This thread was split off from the discussion "Finnish atrocities against Soviet civilians" at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=88284 and re-captioned by this moderator - DT.]

BTW, what I have heard of the Krivi incident, the POWs deserved what they got. There was no intention to harm them, but after they began to laugh at and insult Finnish wounded, the battalion commander had had enough and ordered the shooting.

One quoted thread mentioned some Uuno Inkinen. Is he the same fellow whose book was published by "Rauhanpuolustajat", an organization of draft dodgers, traitors and other toxic waste of the society?

[Topspeed]

There were always bad apples there for sure...and in all wars when killing is "daily bread" the fact what is right and wrong might get slightly buzzy ...don't you think ?

In my eyes Elina Sana's book did not convince me about finns being masters of torture and butchers.....there is a saying in finnish cadet school that is passed to all new cadets: " Gentleman is always a gentleman..even in the hell ! "

I read the description when Mannerheim visited the prisoncamps where soviets were taken..he immediately promissed tobacco and western help to all those he saw there..he was apparently very shocked too and did not really know how bad the situation on the front was in food vise in general.

[David Thompson]

batu -- You said:

additionally as far as I know the death rate among the Russian POW put in the finnish camps was one of the highest in the war.
about 1/3 of the POW died from hunger.

Source please.

Mikko H. -- You said:

There can be no serious doubt that Finland was included in the secret protocol in Soviet sphere.

Source please.

The topic is Finnish atrocities against Soviet civilians. Let's stay on it. Discussions unrelated to this topic can be taken up on another thread.

H&WC Section Rules
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[David Thompson]

batu -- I wrote:

batu -- You said:

additionally as far as I know the death rate among the Russian POW put in the finnish camps was one of the highest in the war.
about 1/3 of the POW died from hunger.

Source please.

You replied:

As for the number of Russian POWs died in Finish camps, the 30 per cent figure is widely cited in many finnish sources and is not disputed here.

That's not the way it works here. This forum exists for the readers, who come here looking for verifiable information. We expect sources to be provided in the original post, whether the figure is contested or not.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

A general reference to a website, or a book without page references; citations or links to racist websites; generalized citations to book reviews; and citations to unsourced articles.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

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Provide your source(s) or consider this your warning.

[batu]

David,
if you insist.


"During the Continuation War almost 19 000 Soviet POWs perished in Finnish camps. With regards to the relatively well-organizedand modern society Finland was already at this time, this massive mortality among the POWs must be considered extensive since 29 % of the POWs perished. Thus Finland comes close to countries like Germany, the USSR and Japan, which all had an extraordinarily high mortality of the POWs in their captivity"
this is a quote from the report of a finnish researcher. can be found at: http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:89X ... lity&hl=fi
page 30.
The researcher compares the food ratios for the Russian POWs during different wars, and comes to conlcusion that
it wasn't the shortage of food that was a reason of starving the POWs. but it was a deliberate poicy of the Finish government, aimed at starving the POWs, so that the couldn't escape. the situation improved only after the criticism Finland received from the foreign journalists and the Allied countries.

[KalaVelka]

What I noticed from the site is that the word "probably" pops up very often.
"Although Finland generally was short of supplies in the winter of 1941-42, and the foodstuffs were all but totally rationed, the main reasons for providing the POWs with starvation rations was probably not the lack of food."

"Benefiting from earlier experiences, the high command probably issued starvation rations in order to enforce obedience and forestall escapes by depriving the POWs their capacity for initiative."

So what he tells us is that the situation might have been this or that, but as he says it, it is "probably". He doesnt have anything real to back up himself and so he is talking about "probabilities".

Ps. Has "Tiedon antoja" something to do with the political far left magazine "Tiedonantaja"?

[Tero]

By batu

The researcher compares the food ratios for the Russian POWs during different wars, and comes to conlcusion that
it wasn't the shortage of food that was a reason of starving the POWs. but it was a deliberate poicy of the Finish government, aimed at starving the POWs, so that the couldn't escape.

That is not his conclusion, actually.

In earlier studies it has been suggested that the extensive death toll of the POWs in late 1941 and the first half year of 1942 was, to a large extent, a direct result of insufficient food supplies since the general resources were extremely limited in Finland that winter. However, this proposition seems doubtful: according to my calculations, an increase of the POW rations to the level of that of the general Finnish population would have required a raise of only approximately five per mille of the total caloric consumption f the whole population.

I therefore suggest that the main cause of death among the Soviet POWs is likely to have been rather a set of epidemic diseases, which spread asymmetrically and at random in the critical period of December 1941 to August 1942. Some 15 000 POWs perished during these nine months, which means 83 % of the total death toll. If the poor food supply situation in the winter of 1941-42 had been the cause for the mass deaths among the POWs, the mortality among the different camps would probably have been evenly distributed between the camps. This, however, is not the case: the death rates vary sharply from camp to camp. In some camps up to half of the POWs perished while in other camps the mortality was either at amedium or even a low level.

[Topspeed]

He made numerous "hunting" trips to Germany during late 1930s and had a very positive attitude towards Germans.

There is a new book written by a Russian historian Baryshnikov. Its title is "Mannerheim ilman naamoiota". U can probably get it in finnish libraries. The author provied the photocopies of the orders of Mannerheim concerning the establishment of the camps.

The fact is that Mannerheim ordered to separate Slavic population of Karelia from Finnougric part of it and under his orders thousand of ethnic Russian kids, women and old peoples were incarcerated in the camps where many of them were abused, murdered and starved to death.

I find this all disturbing and I think that Finns should acknowledge that what happened was an organized brutal repression of the civilians,
based on the racist principles, sanctioned by the very top of the military command.

And Finland was a hostile state.

Finns were increasingly suspicoius towards USSR. So the war started.

Batu,


Who is Dimitri Frolov ?

Several POW:s in Finland were also sent to western Finland. They had cozy environments. Meaning they had same farm food as the rest of the finns back there. Also when scattered all around and not all in one place they could not get sick that easily either.

About women in Soviet army; not only where they ruthless partisans who killed babies and children ( Lokka / Salla region ) they were also fighter pilots in the air force. Totally unlike in Finland where no women were in the combat duties.

Certainly Mannerheim issued all directives his staff had prepared for him by his autograph...sometimes not. Mannerheim was more like a figure head of the army, who did very little of the actual planning ( God's sake he was 77 years old at the end of the war ! ). He did not do numerous hunting trips to Germany, but he did get numerous treatments for his illnesses in Switzerland. He went to hunt before the war and during the war with Hermann Goering ( this possibly helped finns to get Me 109s in June 1944 ). He was also in contact with Winston Churchill before the war.


regards,

JT

[Mikko H.]

This discussion is veering more and more off-topic...

Finns took 64,188 POWs in 1941-44, some 56,000 of them by the end of 1941. Of all the POWs 18,550 (29%) died in Finnish custody, majority of them in the winter of 1941/42 in conditions that even the official Finnish history Jatkosodan historia calls 'hunger catastrophe'.

Source: Heikki Roiko-Jokela: Neuvostoliittolaiset sotavangit Suomessa. Article in book Heikki Roiko-Jokela (ed.): Vihollisen armoilla. Neuvostosotavankien kohtaloita Suomessa 1941-1948.

[batu]

Batu,


Who is Dimitri Frolov ?

the report i cited above is written by a finn,
Frolov wrote about finnish POWs in Russia.

Several POW:s in Finland were also sent to western Finland. They had cozy environments. Meaning they had same farm food as the rest of the finns back there. Also when scattered all around and not all in one place they could not get sick that easily either.

About women in Soviet army; not only where they ruthless partisans who killed babies and children ( Lokka / Salla region ) they were also fighter pilots in the air force. Totally unlike in Finland where no women were in the combat duties

.

well, that's way out of line. About POWs I suffest you read the report i cited or the book Mikko refered to above.
As for Russian women partisans, could you give any evidence of your statement? So far it looks to me like some kind of NAzi propaganda.

Certainly Mannerheim issued all directives his staff had prepared for him by his autograph...sometimes not. Mannerheim was more like a figure head of the army, who did very little of the actual planning ( God's sake he was 77 years old at the end of the war ! ). He did not do numerous hunting trips to Germany, but he did get numerous treatments for his illnesses in Switzerland. He went to hunt before the war and during the war with Hermann Goering ( this possibly helped finns to get Me 109s in June 1944 ). He was also in contact with Winston Churchill before the war.

so he did have hunting trips and personal friendly reltionship with Goering?
Goering, BTW, was convicted in the Nurenberg process for crimes against humanity and was sentenced to death.
As for how much Mannerheim was in charge of the army, I believe he was in full charge not only of the army but to a large extent of Finnish internal and external policy of the time.

[Topspeed]

Batu,


Who is Dimitri Frolov ?
dfgfgdfgfg

Several POW:s in Finland were also sent to western Finland. They had cozy environments. Meaning they had same farm food as the rest of the finns back there. Also when scattered all around and not all in one place they could not get sick that easily either.

About women in Soviet army; not only where they ruthless partisans who killed babies and children ( Lokka / Salla region ) they were also fighter pilots in the air force. Totally unlike in Finland where no women were in the combat duties.

Certainly Mannerheim issued all directives his staff had prepared for him by his autograph...sometimes not. Mannerheim was more like a figure head of the army, who did very little of the actual planning ( God's sake he was 77 years old at the end of the war ! ). He did not do numerous hunting trips to Germany, but he did get numerous treatments for his illnesses in Switzerland. He went to hunt before the war and during the war with Hermann Goering ( this possibly helped finns to get Me 109s in June 1944 ). He was also in contact with Winston Churchill before the war.


regards,

JT

What is dfgfgdfgfg supposed to mean ?

[batu]

sorry, I was just checking how the quotes work

[TL]

Hi batu!

Yes, many Finns get touchy when the subject of mistreatment of Russian POWs and civilians is brought up. Some want to deny the whole thing, while others, who are better informed, have a problem with the clearly biased accounts about the events and the reasons that led to them. I, for one, do not dispute that both civilians and POWs lost their lives in Finnish hands. I do, however, want to point out that the reasons are not the ones many people would like them to be. Apart from plain neglect, the fact that nobody in Finland was doing well at that time is one that should not be forgotten or downplayed.
I'll give you an example (anecdotal, I know): My gandmother's father was from Russian Karelia, so there was plenty of family there also during WWII. One person actually ended up as a POW in Finland. Being aware he had family "on the other side" he wrote to my grandmother and her sister in perfect Finnish as he had gone to a Finnish-speaking school (I have the actual letter in my possession). In the letter, he asked for stuff like shoes, warm clothes and soap (I think). My grandmother pointed out that at the time they were unable to provide the man with any of the things he asked for, as they themselves were struggling to keep themselves fed and clothed.
The point is that when basic things for survival are in short supply, POWs and "enemy" civilians - sadly - aren't the first ones in line. Sometime - even more tragically - they may have be left out of the line altogether, and this is NOT OK by any means, but merely a tragic fact that in some cases could have been avoided. The latter part of the sentence means that intent on the part of some Finns cannot be ruled out. What can be ruled out, however, is a Nazi-style plan of extermination, which seems to pop up in many accounts that raise the right issue, but put a biased spin on it. It is also important to point out that mixing and matching real pieces of evidence does not constitute evidence.

Besides, Mannerheim was called a Butcher like ALL whites. This does not mean that they all actually were involved in butchering anyone.

Just an ill-structured and somewhat incoherent point I wanted to make...

TL

[Tero T]

I understand the National Archives of Finland is currently doing a thorough research account of every prisoner of war returned to Russia. They have a budget of about 4 million euros for this project and a big
research team.
Earlier I had posted some pages of a Soviet military prosecutors notes regarding supposed Finnish atrocities during WWII and in particular the continuation war. I have asked Dr Varpu Lindstrom from the York University to look into these papers to see if there is anything new in these documents or are these already known. Dr Lindstrom has been heavily involved in the Karelian research and has edited the Karelian Exodus published by the journal of Finnish studies. I have been told for instance with regards to researchers studying Canadian finns who travelled Soviet Karelia in the 30's that the information varies. The Communist Party Archives in
Petrozavodsk have contradictory information in each individual file of
the Finnish Canadians who were shot. Some information was meant for the relatives and different information for the communist party. So the story changes to the particular audience.
As a result because a document has a Soviet Military prosecutors stamps is meaningless especially if these documents were prepared for the war crimes tribunal in 1947 headed by Zhadinov. One must trace to the original interview documents ( State archives) and compare these to known facts from Finnish archives to see if these places and peoples existed. An arduous task but one that the Finns are endevouring to look into.

An interesting side to this discussion is some documents I have seen with relation to Soviet POW's during the Winter war. One such document states that a certain Soviet soldier , who was sent back to Russian after hostilities had ceased. was sentenced to 5 years hard labour for allowing one self to become a prisoner. Was this the punishment given to all Soviet POW's from the Winter war. I have heard many were put to death.?
I have yet to have heard of any surviving winter war veterans of the 163 or 44 divisions. Do they exist.?
Tero T Toronto

[Topspeed]

My aunts estate still has a saunabuilding that has bars on the windows. Soviet prisoners were doing some farmwork for their living in western Finland. Most certainly were not abused by anyone. In fact after the Winter War several POW:s thanked for the hospitality afterwards.

50% of the finnish POW:s died enroute to Siberia and corpses were thrown out of the train cars. 10 % of those who made it to the camp survived. Luckily not all finnish POW:s were sent to Siberia ( based on a TV document ). Those who survived Spalernaja weighed around 40 kilos after comming home and gotten some special fattening treatment by doctors before being handed out to finnish officials ( Prisoner of Spalernaja; Lasse Pekuri ).

American finns in Siberia were masslaughtered by machineguns by the politruks...blood was making waves on the floors of a kitchen I remember reading. This was before the war ( book made of letters and pics received by the relatives of those perished...letters smuggled by released soviet prisoners in their overcoat lining to Finland ).

Batu is still unable to come forward with details of how finns abused soviet prisoners. Instead he goes on a personal attack. I find that slightly disturbing. Elina Sana is an ex-stalinist that has been discussed here before.

I have never said that I don't believe that 5 000 soviets got killed in Eastern Karelia transit camps. I find that most unfortunate happening. Therefore I would like to know more.

I wonder what would have happened to 500 000 karelians that fleed ( were evaquated ) to Finland after Winter War and Continuation War had they not moved westwards when soviets came and took they lands and possessions ?

My grandma whose brother got killed by the reds ( and he was regular worker who refused to join the reds ) who fleed Helsinki in 1918 used to say: " WAR IS CRUEL AND CAVALRY HARSH ! " She had learned that as a kid. She was born in 1900 and was a very sweet old lady.
Another thing she taught me was: " Whenever you hear impossible things...don't believe them ! "