German POWs murdered in Broniki, Ukraine in 1941

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Panzermahn
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German POWs murdered in Broniki, Ukraine in 1941

Post by Panzermahn » 10 Oct 2002 09:20

Here's a sample of Bolshevik brutality early in the war

http://333200000069-3.bei.t-online.de/broniki.jpg

[image replaced with a link by webmaster]

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 10 Oct 2002 12:52

Please post links to that kind of images rather than display them directly in the post.

/Marcus

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 11 Oct 2002 01:41

okay, i didn't know u want it that way but may i ask why?

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Post by Marcus » 11 Oct 2002 17:51

panzermahn wrote:okay, i didn't know u want it that way but may i ask why?


Simply because that kind of images can be very disturbing and people should have a choice wether or not to view them.

/Marcus

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Post by Panzermahn » 13 Oct 2002 14:04

marcus,

u had any idea how to access those photographs and documents with english caption in Bundesarchiv Koblenz relating to Allied and Russian War Crimes by the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau

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Post by Marcus » 13 Oct 2002 14:09

panzermahn wrote:u had any idea how to access those photographs and documents with english caption in Bundesarchiv Koblenz relating to Allied and Russian War Crimes by the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau


No idea, sorry.

btw. what is the difference between "Allied" and "Russian"? The USSR (which I assume you are referring to when you talk about Russia) was a part of the Allies, in case you have forgotten.

/Marcus

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Post by Panzermahn » 13 Oct 2002 14:26

Russian Bolshevik crimes against the Germans usually are a thousand times more brutal and horrific than the Allied war crimes..


Usually those photos i found usually comes from german website...But they are not that disturbing, right? compare to those i found regarding Russian Bolshevik brutality against civillians in Nemmersdorf...

Then why some people allowed to place photos of the bodies of jewish victims of Nazi crimes? isn't that disturbing too? what's the difference between the murdered bodies of german POWs and the jews?

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Post by Marcus » 13 Oct 2002 14:29

panzermahn wrote:Russian Bolshevik crimes against the Germans usually are a thousand times more brutal and horrific than the Allied war crimes.


That does not change the fact that the USSR (not Russia) was a part of the Allies.

panzermahn wrote:Then why some people allowed to place photos of the bodies of jewish victims of Nazi crimes? isn't that disturbing too? what's the difference between the murdered bodies of german POWs and the jews?


I don't want any photos that are very disturbing to be posted directly in messages, regardless of which religious or ethnic background the victims are.

/Marcus

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Post by Roberto » 14 Oct 2002 11:49

panzermahn wrote:Russian Bolshevik crimes against the Germans usually are a thousand times more brutal and horrific than the Allied war crimes.


Historical research doesn't necessarily support this contention.

According to a detailed investigation by the West German Federal Archives in the 1970s, for instance, there were about 3,300 crime sites east of Oder and Neisse where Red Army troops murdered German civilians in 1944/45.

For 2,600 of these crimes sites, the number of victims could be established as having been around 24,500. If the average number of victims at the other 700 crime sites was similar, we have roughly 31,000 murders of German civilians committed by Red Army troops.

The Western Allies killed more people in a single night at Dresden, if I remember correctly.

Add to the above mentioned Red Army atrocities the thousands of refugees machine-gunned by Soviet planes while trying to cross the Frisches Haff on the Baltic coast of East Prussia and the ca. 33,000 who drowned in the Baltic when their ships were hit by mines or Soviet torpedoes, and you have roughly the combined death toll of the bombings of Hamburg in July 1943 and Dresden in February 1945.

As to the scale Soviet massacres of German prisoners of war, the following footnote I translated from Christian Streit's Keine Kameraden: Die Wehrmacht und die sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945 (1997 edition, footnote 155 to pages 108-109) may be of interest:

Otto Bräutigam wrote in his memoirs that in the late summer of 1941, upon his complaint about the bad treatment of Soviet prisoners of war, the Army High Command had replied that the Red Army treated German prisoners in the same way. When B. thereupon examined the collection of cases put together at the Army High Command, he came to the conclusion "that on the whole there were about 180 cases, of which several had obviously been reported by various entitities and were thus included in the collection several times". (Otto Bräutigam, So hat es sich zugetragen. Ein Leben als Soldat und Diplomat, Würzburg 1968, page 376. The files I examined confirm this impression. An "assessment of the enemy" by the Ic/AO of Army Group Center dated 10.3.1942, which the Wehrmacht High Command / Amt Ausl.Abw./Abw. II [Colonel Lahousen] communicated to the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, attributed the shooting of German prisoners of war to the "quickly spread knowledge of the misery of Russian prisoners of war": Federal Archives R 41/169, page 259.


So the one war crime in which the Soviets numerically exceeded their wartime allies was the high mortality of German prisoners in Soviet transit camps and in the Gulag, mainly due to exhaustion, exposure, overwork, malnutrition and disease. The status of knowledge in this respect is summed up as follows by German military historian Rüdiger Overmans, in the following passage I translated from his book Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg:

First of all an overview of the number of deaths in captivity:

Table 65: Deaths in captivity (by custodian state)

Total number of prisoners of war

France 940,000
Great Britain 3,640,000
USA 3,100,000
Yugoslavia 190,000
Other States 170,000
USSR 3,060,000
Sum 11,100,000

Deaths in captivity according to present study

France 34,000
Great Britain 21,000
USA 22,000
Yugoslavia 11,000
Other States 8.000
USSR 363,000
Sum 459,000

Deaths in captivity according to Maschke Commission

France 25,000
Great Britain 1,300
USA 5,000
Yugoslavia 80,000
Other States 13.000
USSR 1,090,000
Sum 1,214,300

When comparing the data about deaths related to the various custodian states, hardly a case of coincidence can be observed. The figures do, however, show a similar trend – custodian states with high death rates according to the data of the Maschke Commission also show an above average death rate in the present study. The same goes for states with low death rates. The question how the nevertheless existing differences in the absolute values can be explained will be examined in the following.
First it should be pointed out that – except in case of the Soviet Union – the losses in captivity in all custodian states are but fractions of percentages of the total losses and are thus in an order of magnitude that cannot be evaluated accurately even with the present, relatively large sample. Furthermore the methods of establishing the figures vary. The data of the Maschke Kommission are based on files of the custodian state and numerous testimonials of German prisoners of war. In matters of content they refer, in what concerns to the Western Allies, to those who died in Allied custody in a narrower sense. The compilation techniques of the present study, however, mandate the inclusion in the category “captivity” also of such cases that formally fall under that category but for which the respective custodian state was not responsible in material terms. This applies especially to the differences in the data related to Great Britain, the USA and the “other countries”.

Things are different in the case of France, where the numbers of the Maschke Commission are based on the official French data and there are substantial indications for the assumption that, of the ca. 180,000 missing in the West, a great number died indeed in French custody – or as mercenaries in Indochina. Even more difficult is the situation regarding deaths in Yugoslavian custody – apart from rather contradictory German testimonials on the one hand and the documented cases underlying the present study on the other there is no examination that could contribute to the clarification of the question.

Given this unsatisfactory state of research the question arises how reliable data about the deaths in captivity could be obtained. Not by means of an empiric compilation analogous to the present one, given that the information deficits pointed out are not caused by methodological deficiencies of the study – the study only demonstrates the fact that the information available to the German authorities is insufficient. Only the evaluation of reports presently coming in from the former Soviet Union, the recovery of unburied dead presently under way both in the former USSR and in Eastern Germany as well as the registration of graves in the Soviet Union by the VDK [Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, a German organization will lead to an improvement of the state of information in the next years or decades.
But independently of what the number of deaths in captivity actually is, the differences – at least in what concerns the Western Allies – are so small that they cannot significantly affect the results of this study so far. This does not apply in regard to Yugoslavia let alone for the Soviet Union –here the difference between 300,000 or a million deaths is so huge that it influences the distribution of the variables. It will thus be attempted in the following to localize the differences more closely.

Table 66: Deaths in Soviet custody by years

Deaths in Soviet captivity according to present study

1941/42 5,000
1943 21,000
1944 41,000
1945 178,000
1946 and after 118,000
Sum 363,000

Missing according to present study

1941/42 134,000
1943 283,000
1944 719,000
1945 ca. 400,000
1946 and after -
Sum 1,536,000

The number of missing in 1945 was estimated for the present study on the basis of the established fact that about two thirds of deaths during the Final Battles occurred in the East of Germany.

Deaths in Soviet captivity according to Maschke Commission

1941/42 166,000
1945 154,000
1946 224,000
1945 550,000
1946 and after included in 1945
Sum 1,094,000

Table 66, which differentiates the number of deaths by years, shows first the number of prisoners of war in Soviet custody and the missing on the Eastern Front, followed by the data of the Maschke Commission. According to the present study a total of ca. 363,000 German soldiers died in Soviet captivity – the sum of individually documented deaths. The approach of the Maschke Commission was another: they established, on the basis of various sources, the number of soldiers taken prisoner as well as the percentage of those who died every year. Although it is an estimate, it can be considered as well founded. When comparing the number of the missing established in the present study, ca. 1.5 million, with the difference in deaths considered by the present study on the one hand and the Maschke Commission on the other, it becomes visible that the difference, ca. 700,000 deaths, corresponds to about half of the number of missing. And it seems altogether plausible, although it cannot be proven, that half of those missing were killed in battle and the other half actually died in Soviet custody. Parting from this consideration the question arises how these ca. 700,000 cases are distributed temporarily. For this it is necessary to recall the conduction of military operations. In the first year, i.e. until ca. the middle of 1943, when the German armies were attacking, they were usually in conditions to recover their own dead in the conquered areas. This means that, at the beginning, the overwhelming majority of missing were taken prisoner and died in Soviet custody – out of the Germans taken prisoner at Stalingrad alone ca. 90,000 died rather soon in captivity. The more the initiative went over to the Soviet side and the more often large units were destroyed and taken prisoner, the greater the number of men killed in battle among those missing is likely to have been.
In relation to the above data this plausible if not provable consideration has the consequence that the results of the present study should be modified. Presumably the number of missing in the years 1941/42 must be almost wholly added to the deaths in captivity, whereas in the following years an ever growing part must be added to those killed on the German side. If the numbers of the present study are nevertheless used for the further assessment, this is only because the above considerations, while plausible, are not based on documented individual fates like the remaining results of the present study. As already mentioned, it must be left to a complementary study to evaluate the information arriving from the former Soviet Union at present and in the future, in order to obtain more accurate results in what concerns captivity.


Emphasis is mine.
Last edited by Roberto on 14 Oct 2002 15:37, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by witness » 14 Oct 2002 11:59

Roberto
You always know what you are talking about.
Could not help commenting .
My Best Regards.

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Post by Roberto » 14 Oct 2002 12:03

witness wrote:Roberto
You always know what you are talking about.
Could not help commenting .
My Best Regards.


Thanks.

I do what I can.

All the best,

Roberto

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Re: German POWs murdered in Broniki, Ukraine in 1941

Post by Bergveen » 18 Jun 2008 19:23

I did read all statistics statet by Rüdiger Overmans on German war deaths and have a very mixed feeling.

First there are HUGE differences when it comes to numbers of the dead Soviet and German soldiers in and after WWII.

Soviet Soldiers.

Soviet numbers lie between 8,5 and 13,5 million including all kind of forces and also including the 2.8 million probably died in German captivity (out of a maximum of 5.7 million taken as POW). The truth lies in the definitions (soldiers also includes partizans?) and the minimum and maximum counts. They probably lost 8,5 million killed in battle and 2,8 million as POW (most deaths occurring within a month after capture and most in 1941). Total losses then be 11.3 million.
Furthermore within the Soviet Union after mai 1945 there were uprisings with high loss of life. Are these killed also taken in account? Of all Soviet POW's which had been in Germany Stalin didn't trust them and send many to Siberia (hell). Are these killed also taken in account?

Civilian deaths: the battle casulaties can be totalized, but those of the civilians not. Who were soldiers and who civilians?
Were Partizans also civilians? Militia units? Women which defended the cities?

German Soldiers. Rüdiger Overmans states 5,3 million death. 2,3 million KIA, 2 million MIA (he says: 50% was in fact KIA and 50% died in Soviet custody). The remainder: 1 million died of different causes: at sea, air, of illness, of wounds, executions, suicide aso. With 3,5 million battle casulaties and aprox. 1,6 million deaths as POW (the statistics of the death as POW in France, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union differ a lot). I personally believe that in the SU about 1,3 and 1,4 million died as POW, in all camps of the US, France, Britain aso not more than 100.000 and in Yugoslavia beteen 50 and 75.000.
With 3,5 million battle casualties I can fairly live. The WASt and DRK give numbers of fallen and missing per theatre and these totals ar in line with the battle casulaties. Encomprised are some 200.000 killed in the Volkssturm and Polizei forces. Of these the vast majority fell on the Eastern Front (2.750.000) and the remainder (750.000) on all other Fronts.
Rüdiger divides them in The North (30.000), Africa (16.000), The West (340.000), Italy (150.000)(??) and Balkans (100.000)(??).

?? = very doubtfull numbers. Against Tito the Germans used only a handfull of divisions.
The West: 80.000 in Normandy, 75.000 others in Elsas, Lotharingen, Bretagne, Provence, Picardie; 35.000 fallen in 1940; 46.000 in Belgium, 32,000 in the Netherlands.

The WASt gives the next number which were found and burried in the ground

- Current territory SU 2,2 million (35.000 in Estonia, 100.000 in Latvia, 20.000 in Lituania, 250.000 in White Russia, unknown totals for northern part East Prussia, Ukraine and Caucasian Republics). Not all bodies found until now.
- Current territory of Poland (Southern part East Prussia, Silesia, Pommerania, Danzig): 468.00. Most died in 1945.
- Current territory germany: 250.000++ ?? [part of East & West]. Battles of 1945.
- Current territory of Framce (Elsace, Lotharingen): 240.000 [part of the West]
- Current territory of Tjechosloavkia: 178.000: battles mai 1945: the last German blood-bath.
- Italy: 107.000 (please note difference with Rüdiger Overmans!!!) I do believe the lower number!!!
- Yugoslavia (Slovenia: 6.300; Croatia: 20.200; Serbia: 16.000; Bosnia: 12.000; Macedon: 2000)
- Hungary: 54.000 (50% died in ONE NIGHT attempting to break-out of destroyed Budapest)
- Belgium: 46.000 [part of the West]. Inclusive Luxemburg??
- Austria: 45.000 (yes the end battles were very intense!!!). Battlles april & mai 45
- Rumania: 38.000 (many still not found; but most Germans died just over the border in Moldovo!!!). Battle august 44
- Netherlands: 32.000 (battles 1944 and 1945) [part of the West]
- North Africa (Tunesia): 16.000
- Finland: 15.000 (Eismeer Front!)
- Norway: 11.500 (50% died in 1940 the other half in 1945)
- Albania: 3.600 (1944)
- Bulgaria: 1.800 (1944)
- Greece???
- Crete: 4000?

In ships on the bottom of the sea: Bismark (2100); Scharnhorst (1900); the many U-boats, planes etc.

Now is it really time to check all the totals and search and explain the diferences.
That is a nice task for the other members.

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Re: German POWs murdered in Broniki, Ukraine in 1941

Post by Sergey » 19 Jun 2008 11:21

I propose to look into this thread

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... i&start=15

"Deaths of German Soldiers at Broniki 1 Jul 1941"

Here I show that according to known facts it is possible that Geman POWs were killed during an attempt to escape.

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