Liberation of Barcelona. 1939. A photo and a story.

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Kurt_Belarus
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Liberation of Barcelona. 1939. A photo and a story.

Post by Kurt_Belarus » 30 Dec 2005 20:04

Nationalists celebrating victory in Barcelona
Image

26th of January 1939.

Nationalist troops began entering Barcelona, quickly suppressing any resistance by Republicans.
On the first tank that entered the city sat a smiling German Jewish girl with her arm raised in a Roman salute.
She had been imprisoned by Republicans for being Trotskist and was freed by the Nationalists from a prison in Las Cortes.

(Thomas Hugh. Civil war in Spain. Chapter 71)

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 31 Dec 2005 14:14

From the same page...p850 of Thomas' book:

There were 5 days of paseos, during which the surviving falangists of the city, embittered by suffering, killed whom they liked with impunity.

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Post by beauregard61 » 31 Dec 2005 16:08

The topic reminds me of the "liberation" of Jerusalem in the first crusade. There were many "liberated" souls too at the end of the day...
I cannot understand how anybody can call the final victory of a side which fought for example under the motto "Death to intelligence" (Millan Astray) against a democratic elected government a liberation. But people are free to construct their own picture of history.

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Post by Maribel-bel » 31 Dec 2005 18:29

Some comments:
1.- There wasn't any armed resistance in Barcelona
2.- The picture shows a standard car, but not a tank as you say that Thomas says
3.- If the lady was imprisoned for been troskist, it’s not very appropiate to raise her arm saluting as a fascist, unless newly converted into this.
4.- If the lady actually was a troskist and this would be found by the new rulers, most likely this lady would go again into prison to be later shot after passing through a martial court. Another alternative, as she seems to be German, would be to hand her over to the Gestapo friends. Being Jew, it’s easy to guess what would happen to her.
5.- "Liberation" of Barcelona ? If you visit Barcelona today, you wont find anyone using that term to describe the arrival of the Francoists to the town of their grandparents. How can be said "liberation" when the new system was a ferocious dictatorship ?

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Post by mirko » 01 Jan 2006 02:58

Maribel-bel wrote:"Liberation" of Barcelona ? If you visit Barcelona today, you wont find anyone using that term to describe the arrival of the Francoists to the town of their grandparents. How can be said "liberation" when the new system was a ferocious dictatorship ?]


Actually I visited Barcelona. I found people who use the term "liberation" and I saw ono of the first photos of the city after their release. It is not about impune revenges or triumhalistic parades, but of a Holy Mass. The first public mass since 1936. One can see a very very great crowd.
No one can deny Franco's stuborness in not recognizing nor respecting the authentic regionalism. It was a great mistake.

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Post by iwh » 01 Jan 2006 13:19

mirko wrote:[
No one can deny Franco's stuborness in not recognizing nor respecting the authentic regionalism. It was a great mistake.


Again, p.850 of Hugh Thomas:

Henceforth, Catalans would speak, and read the "language of Empire". New newspapers or old ones came out anew, Vanguardia as Vanguardia Espanola: one of its collaborators Carlos Sentis, described the collapse of Catalonia as simply "the end of a Gangster film". It was to innumerable people the end of a world, as well as the end of a dream. Catalan autonomy was rescinded; the dancing of the Sardana, the Catalan national dance, banned, and the Catalan tongue, prohibited as an official language. Those who published even business prospectuses in Catalan were fined, Spanish had to be used in churches on all occasions, and even Catalan Christian names were prohibited. Shortly afterwards, an order came to remove the inscriptions, on tombs in the cemetary of Montjuich, commemorating Durruti, Ascaso and the anarchist schoolmaster, Ferrer, shot in 1909


Franco didn't just refuse to respect regionalism, he attempted to wipe it out completely.

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Post by mirko » 01 Jan 2006 18:15

iwh wrote:Again, p.850 of Hugh Thomas:

Henceforth, Catalans would speak, and read the "language of Empire". New newspapers or old ones came out anew, Vanguardia as Vanguardia Espanola: one of its collaborators Carlos Sentis, described the collapse of Catalonia as simply "the end of a Gangster film". It was to innumerable people the end of a world, as well as the end of a dream. Catalan autonomy was rescinded; the dancing of the Sardana, the Catalan national dance, banned, and the Catalan tongue, prohibited as an official language. Those who published even business prospectuses in Catalan were fined, Spanish had to be used in churches on all occasions, and even Catalan Christian names were prohibited. Shortly afterwards, an order came to remove the inscriptions, on tombs in the cemetary of Montjuich, commemorating Durruti, Ascaso and the anarchist schoolmaster, Ferrer, shot in 1909


Absolutely true. The same can be said of the basques.

iwh wrote:
Franco didn't just refuse to respect regionalism, he attempted to wipe it out completely.


It is true, too. But I only would like to point out that in a great degree those bias were as far as regionalism was anti-spanish. It was not a justification.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 01 Jan 2006 19:55

beauregard61 wrote:The topic reminds me of the "liberation" of Jerusalem in the first crusade.

Yes, I think you are right.
Jerusalem was also liberated by the crusaders (as we know this city of Christians and Jews was conquered by Arab Muslims, so the reconquest of Jerusalem is a liberation). Excessive violence of the victors is totally another story.

I cannot understand how anybody can call the final victory of a side which fought for example under the motto "Death to intelligence" (Millan Astray) against a democratic elected government a liberation.


1. I don't think that Millan Astray was a leading ideologist of Nationalists. So I don't think that it's right to say that Nationalists fought under his motto. By the way, his words were 'Death to intelligentsia' (or "Death to intellectuals").

Just remember that Franco removed Astray from his office after this incident.

To say that Nationalist side "fought under the motto "Death to intelligence'" is the even graver distortion of truth than to say that all Republicans fought under mottoes "We will create a dictatorship of proletariat and this means repression against capitalists and rich classes" (communist leader Largo Cabaliero) or "'Catholicism must be swept away implacably" (editorial of CNT, the leading libertarian organ in Madrid).

2. A ''democratic elected government" can be turned in a dictatorship. And people have an unconditional right to raise against such government if it violates their freedom.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 01 Jan 2006 20:24

Maribel-bel wrote:Some comments:
1.- There wasn't any armed resistance in Barcelona

H.Thomas says that there were 'separate points of resistance'.

2.- The picture shows a standard car, but not a tank as you say that Thomas says

I've never said that this picture depicts a tank and this very woman.
Just a few women, men and children celebrating their victory.

3.- If the lady was imprisoned for been troskist, it’s not very appropiate to raise her arm saluting as a fascist, unless newly converted into this.

I don't think that she was 'converted' but I think she was glad and grateful for her release.
It was not uncommon for Republicans to shoot all political prisoners during a retreat.

By the way, not only falangists or Italian fascists used this salute.
This salute was common for all Nationalists, majority of whom were nor falangists nor fascists.

4.- If the lady actually was a troskist and this would be found by the new rulers, most likely this lady would go again into prison to be later shot after passing through a martial court. Another alternative, as she seems to be German, would be to hand her over to the Gestapo friends. Being Jew, it’s easy to guess what would happen to her.

I have never heard that Franco handed Jews to Germany. More than that a lot of German and European Jews found refuge in Franco's Spain.
And I don't think that this girl 'most likely would go again into prison to be later shot'. It was possible but not 'most likely'.

5.-...How can be said "liberation" when the new system was a ferocious dictatorship?

Reds were a lot worse.
Last edited by Kurt_Belarus on 01 Jan 2006 20:38, edited 1 time in total.

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'Democracy' in Catalonia

Post by Kurt_Belarus » 01 Jan 2006 20:34

'Democracy' in Catalonia

'Day after day we found ourselves on the committee repeating "why these assassinations?" ... A man was killed because his sister was a nun. ... They called a man a fascist simply because he went to mass.'

Juan Miravitlles, an Esquerra representative on the militia committee

(Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya - party, which governed Catalonia between 1931 and 1939)

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Post by mirko » 01 Jan 2006 21:16

iwh wrote:
Shortly afterwards, an order came to remove the inscriptions, on tombs in the cemetary of Montjuich, commemorating Durruti, Ascaso and the anarchist schoolmaster, Ferrer, shot in 1909


Franco didn't just refuse to respect regionalism, he attempted to wipe it out completely.


Well, this was an issue of public health. Commemorations of those guys it would be like have monuments for Jack the Ripper, Al Capone or Dillinger.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 01 Jan 2006 21:23

mirko wrote:
iwh wrote:
Shortly afterwards, an order came to remove the inscriptions, on tombs in the cemetary of Montjuich, commemorating Durruti, Ascaso and the anarchist schoolmaster, Ferrer, shot in 1909

Franco didn't just refuse to respect regionalism, he attempted to wipe it out completely.


Well, this was an issue of public health.


I don't think you are right. It's pity, but Franco actually tried to suppress Catalan culture. And I think it had nothing to do with public health.

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Post by iwh » 01 Jan 2006 21:42

Kurt_Belarus wrote:H.Thomas says that there were 'separate points of resistance'.


At the Llobregat river crossing. Is, or was this river in Barcelona?..or on the outskirts?

Kurt_Belarus wrote:I've never said that this picture depicts a tank and this very woman.
Just a few women, men and children celebrating their victory.


You are using it to illustrate your point. Ok, I can go with that. But of course it does work both ways.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:It was not uncommon for Republicans to shoot all political prisoners during a retreat.


Again, a generalisation with no source.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:Reds were a lot worse.


How many more times are we going to see generalisations such as this.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Day after day we found ourselves on the committee repeating "why these assassinations?" ... A man was killed because his sister was a nun. ... They called a man a fascist simply because he went to mass.'

Juan Miravitlles, an Esquerra representative on the militia committee

(Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya - party, which governed Catalonia between 1931 and 1939)


Source please.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 02 Jan 2006 00:34

iwh wrote:At the Llobregat river crossing.

Or during the whole operation.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:It was not uncommon for Republicans to shoot all political prisoners during a retreat.

a generalisation with no source.

T.Hugh and others. In Castellon for example.

Reds were a lot worse.

How many more times are we going to see generalisations such as this.


How many times we are going to see generalisations such as

- 'most likely this lady would go again into prison to be later shot'
or 'you wont find anyone using that term to describe the arrival of the Francoists to the town of their grandparents'
or 'a nice propaganda statement'
or 'it comes straight out of the Falange handbook'
or 'Inquisition that held most of Europe in fear'
or 'slaughtered a whole race of people in South America'
and so on?

As for my generalisation, I can prove my words with examples - see what Reds did in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lavia, Lithuania, Estonia, China or North Korea.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Day after day we found ourselves on the committee repeating "why these assassinations?" ... A man was killed because his sister was a nun. ... They called a man a fascist simply because he went to mass.'

Juan Miravitlles, an Esquerra representative on the militia committee

(Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya - party, which governed Catalonia between 1931 and 1939)


Source please.[/quote]

Ronald Fraser
Blood of Spain (page 146)

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Post by mirko » 02 Jan 2006 01:46

Kurt_Belarus wrote:
mirko wrote:
iwh wrote:
Shortly afterwards, an order came to remove the inscriptions, on tombs in the cemetary of Montjuich, commemorating Durruti, Ascaso and the anarchist schoolmaster, Ferrer, shot in 1909

Franco didn't just refuse to respect regionalism, he attempted to wipe it out completely.


Well, this was an issue of public health.


I don't think you are right. It's pity, but Franco actually tried to suppress Catalan culture. And I think it had nothing to do with public health.


Dear Kurt_Belarus.
You did not understand me. I agree even with iwh about Franco's reppresion of the true regionalism of Catalonia and Basques. Unfortunately National Spain's regime was stained with this centralism. I say again it was a serious mistake.
When I say"public health" I am talking about removing inscriptions related to Durruti, Ascaso and Ferrer, because these guys do not deserve any kind of tribute. They were criminals.
Buenaventura Durruti was a ferocius savage anarchist who (among many other things) killed Cardinal Soldevilla in 1923. He also incite the martyrdom of the claretians of Barbastro.
Francisco Ferrer was no a teacher but an agitator. He was behind the attempt on Alfonso XIII's life in 1906.
So I say that honoring these guys is like honoring Jack the Ripper, Al Capone or Dillinger.

Mirko

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