Soldiers and Submachine guns

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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KC
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Soldiers and Submachine guns

Post by KC » 01 Jan 2006 22:22

I read an article about MP-40's in this online encyclopedia Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-40). At the bottom where it says "MP40's in Films", it says that MP40's were only carried by NCO's, whereas the rest carried regular K98 rifle. Because this seems wrong and I disagree with it, I would like to hear your opinons.

Also, if MP40's where used only by NCO's, were Thompsons used only by the NCO's?

KC

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Raccoon
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Re: Soldiers and Submachine guns

Post by Raccoon » 01 Jan 2006 22:38

KC wrote:I read an article about MP-40's in this online encyclopedia Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-40). At the bottom where it says "MP40's in Films", it says that MP40's were only carried by NCO's, whereas the rest carried regular K98 rifle. Because this seems wrong and I disagree with it, I would like to hear your opinons.

Also, if MP40's where used only by NCO's, were Thompsons used only by the NCO's?

KC
Only given to NCO's? I believe so. SMG's were giving to NCO's so that they wouldn't join their troops in long range fights. An SMG is more costly, harder to clean and needs more training, thereby it was in most cases only given to NCO's. Why no long range fights? Because this was dangerous. The leader should stay out of the fight if he can. This doesn't mean he's the one who goes first in close quarter fights. I he wants to he can pas it to another soldier in that case.

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 02 Jan 2006 14:11

The entire war the standard was that the group leader (Stellengruppe G) had a MPi. and the men K98. After the first experiences in Poland and France the officers which had until then just a pistol were also equipped with a MPi. additional to the pistol.
In late 1943 some certain types of companies were organised with a so called Sturmzug where all men and NCO´s were equipped with a MPi. and later with a Stg.44. Nevertheless the rule was just certain NCO´s and officers carried a MPi.

\Christoph

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Raccoon
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Post by Raccoon » 02 Jan 2006 15:26

Christoph Awender wrote:The entire war the standard was that the group leader (Stellengruppe G) had a MPi. and the men K98. After the first experiences in Poland and France the officers which had until then just a pistol were also equipped with a MPi. additional to the pistol.
In late 1943 some certain types of companies were organised with a so called Sturmzug where all men and NCO´s were equipped with a MPi. and later with a Stg.44. Nevertheless the rule was just certain NCO´s and officers carried a MPi.

\Christoph
The Russians experimented with squad enitrely equiped with the PPsH. There was a huge disadvantage! The soldiers had only an effective range of 50 m!

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KC
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Post by KC » 02 Jan 2006 19:36

The entire war the standard was that the group leader (Stellengruppe G) had a MPi. and the men K98. After the first experiences in Poland and France the officers which had until then just a pistol were also equipped with a MPi. additional to the pistol.
In late 1943 some certain types of companies were organised with a so called Sturmzug where all men and NCO´s were equipped with a MPi. and later with a Stg.44. Nevertheless the rule was just certain NCO´s and officers carried a MPi.

\Christoph
Thanks Christoph. I was surprised at first that only the NCO's where allowed to carry MP40's; this can put the rest of the German soldiers in danger because they only had bolt action rifles, K98.

KC

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Vegemite/jordan
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hey chris

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 03 Jan 2006 03:29

Do you happen to have any organisations of those SMG platoons that i could have a look at? Where they used as like a kinda heavy support platoon to back up the rest of the company or were they used in mass with whole companys equipped with them and having almost no long range fire power?

thanks in advance, jordan :D

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Raccoon
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Post by Raccoon » 03 Jan 2006 17:27

The STG was designed to replace the MP 40 at first and then replace the K98k in the future.

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dect
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Post by dect » 03 Jan 2006 22:39

Raccoon wrote:The STG was designed to replace the MP 40 at first and then replace the K98k in the future.
I'm not sure if you're right. The StG was less accurate and had worse firepower to completly replace 98k's. Also, 98k's were better as sniper weapons and to use with grenade launchers.

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Raccoon
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Post by Raccoon » 04 Jan 2006 21:07

dect wrote:
Raccoon wrote:The STG was designed to replace the MP 40 at first and then replace the K98k in the future.
I'm not sure if you're right. The StG was less accurate and had worse firepower to completly replace 98k's. Also, 98k's were better as sniper weapons and to use with grenade launchers.
Well, in case of sniperrifles, the K98k had to stay. It's obvious that an assault rifle cannot replace the K98's sniperabilty; Allthough the STG 44 had the possibility to carry a scope* with also infra-red nightvision (very rare though). But there weren't any problems with grenade launchers because the STG 44 was able to use those too: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... tgerat.htm
But what you say about it's accuracy is right. That's why they started with new prototypes like the STG 45.

*Zielfernrohr ZF 4 or ZF 1229 and the »Vampir« Infrarot-Nachtzielgerät: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... ewehre.htm

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Post by Gearhead1432 » 06 Jan 2006 02:45

The STG was intended to replace the MP40 and K98k in a squad. However I don't see the K98k or MP40 disapearing from service. Armored units would still need MP40s and snipers the K98k.

It was proven that at normal combat ranges 7.92Kurz was acurate enough and could be also fired at full auto controlably.

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 07 Jan 2006 00:39

A whole unit of troops armed with submachine guns makes sense only in street fighting, where the battles take place at very close quarters and firepower is critical. Even then, it would be better to provide covering fire with riflemen and squad machine guns with the squads of assault troops attack with their SMG's.

A pure SMG a unit would be at a severe disadvantage in the open countryside because they wouldn't have the range to take on enemy riflemen, as previously stated.

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Vegemite/jordan
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ummm any ktsn?

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 07 Jan 2006 10:33

Hi ah chris still hasnt answered my question so ill ask the rest of you-do you have a units ktsn that actually existed and fought? If you do, please send me a msg about what unit it is and a ktsn. Im very interested how it got on.

P.S. german please not russian :wink:

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Christoph Awender
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Re: ummm any ktsn?

Post by Christoph Awender » 07 Jan 2006 15:59

Vegemite/jordan wrote:Hi ah chris still hasnt answered my question so ill ask the rest of you-do you have a units ktsn that actually existed and fought? If you do, please send me a msg about what unit it is and a ktsn. Im very interested how it got on.

P.S. german please not russian :wink:
Just have a look into the KStN section of my site. There are several companies which had such a "Sturmzug".
There is also a thread in the forum which deals with the new tactics these platoons used. A little self initiative is needed.

\Christoph

V. Andries
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Post by V. Andries » 08 Jan 2006 12:23

There is also a thread in the forum which deals with the new tactics these platoons used. A little self initiative is needed.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=84874 Look who's been posting there... :)

BTW, found some more documents and can't repeat it enough: the established MPi-Züge in 1944 Grenadier-companies were always supposed to be equipped with MP 43/44 right from the start, never with MP 38/40. Limited tactical troop trials in early 1944 and first establishments in July 1944: one MPi-Zug with 25 MPi.44 (+2 for company HQ) for each Gren.Kp. within each Grenadier-Div. of the 29. Welle (then raised) and within 8 similarly re-outfitted Infanterie-Divisionen on the Eastern Front - totalling 570 MPi.44 for each division.
The namechange from MPi-Zug to Sturm-Zug in Autumn '44 simply occurred because of the name change from Maschinen-Pistole 44 to Sturmgewehr 44.

cheers,

Andries

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Vegemite/jordan
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um ok....

Post by Vegemite/jordan » 09 Jan 2006 07:05

Hey thanks chris I found the KtSn for the large amounts of Mp44s, but i cudnt find the KtSn for the MP40s. The different language barrier does make it a little bit more confusing but if you could just give me the exact link? :D

Thanks in advance
Jordan

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