The Modern German Empire

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soldat_m56
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The Modern German Empire

Post by soldat_m56 » 02 Jan 2006 06:11

I've been toying around with the idea of a German WWI victory for a while now, particularly the world order afterwards and the German Empire itself. For now it's just to entertain myself but possibly I'll write it down in the future. I still have too many gaps to fill in for now. Currently I am trying to have a few questions answered.

Essentially the backround is Germany defeats Allies in Spring offensive, Operation Blücher, before enough Americans arrive and is able to resupply German forward positions. They move to take Paris, Allies seek peace. Germany takes new colonies, builds the largest navy (after putting size restrictions on Britain's of course), and becomes a world power. They also help a puppet government in Russia to fight the Reds. A fascist France starts WWII and along with its allies (USA, Italy, Serbia, Greece) is crushed by Germany, Britain, Austria, Hungary, Bulagaria, Romania, and Turkey (both Ottoman and AH collapsed in 1920s). Germany and the United States enter into a long Cold War that continues to the present day, fighting each other indirectly by supporting opposite sides in a conflict. Gradually the kaiser's power diminishes and the military and Reichstag gain the power, making the kaiser a constitutional monarch under a quasi-democracy controlled mostly by militaristic conservatives.

These parts have been giving me trouble:
1. I know Krönprintz Wilhelm would have become Wilhelm III in 1941, but who would succeed him after he died in 1951, and who would be kaiser today?
2. What role would Japan play in WWII, if any?
3. Who could be a leader for a fascist France?
4. Would any German colonies achieve independence, and if so, how and when? How determined does anyone think Germany would be to keep colonies - let them go peacefully or armed revolution?

List of Hypothetical Colonies (Please excuse any grammatical mistakes in my German!)
1. Deutsche Ostafrika
2. Deutsche Südwestafrika
3. Togoland
4. Kamerun
5. Samoa (w/ American portion)
6. Deutsche Neu-Guinea (w/ Papua and Solomon Is.)
7. S. Pacific Protectorate (w/ Guam)
8. Tsingtau, Kiautschou - lease was signed to return to China, was it 99 years?
9. Deutsche Westafrika (formerly French West Africa)
10. Deutsche Kongo (formerly Belgian Congo and French Equitorial Africa)
11. Neu-Kaldonien
12. Deutsche Guayana (formerly French Guiana)
13. Algerien
14. Tunisien
15. Marokko

**BTW, I know there are already threads on a German victory but these are not about the victory itself, rather the political events that could follow**

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Davide Pastore
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Re: The Modern German Empire

Post by Davide Pastore » 02 Jan 2006 11:10

Nick89 wrote:They move to take Paris, Allies seek peace. Germany takes new colonies, builds the largest navy (after putting size restrictions on Britain's of course)


Why?
No, really, why?
Why Britain should have done that?
Had Germany landed in Kent, marched to London and occupied Buckingham Palace, taking the King as hostage?

You wrote "Allied seek peace", that is good enough, but it means "France and Russia accept German peace terms, while Britain (and USA, BTW) accept the status quo".

BTW, I strongly doubt Germany (by sheer yard capability) could build a navy stronger that the (useless) one it had actually built.
Nothwithstanding the fact that fleet size was strictly mandated by law, and could be amended only by Reichstag (which in prewar years had been very unfriendly against Tirpitz's requirements).

Note: the Hochseeflotte was not only useless, it was also positivelly harmful. Because, without it, Germany not only would have not antagonized Britain, but would also (thanks to redirection of the money wasted in naval construction towards the army) would have very probably beaten France in 1914. Bismarck didn't want a big German navy, and most people agree he was not a fool.

Nick89 wrote:A fascist France starts WWII


You are making a huge leap here.

Nick89 wrote:9. Deutsche Westafrika (formerly French West Africa)
10. Deutsche Kongo (formerly Belgian Congo and French Equitorial Africa)
11. Neu-Kaldonien
12. Deutsche Guayana (formerly French Guiana)
13. Algerien
14. Tunisien
15. Marokko


All these had been French for a long time, and some (particularly item 13) had a sizeable French population which (unless Alsatia/Elsass and Lorraine/Lothringen) felt not the slightest affinity with Germany. They would be more a source of trouble than not, with both passive and active resistance.
Better leave them alone.

BTW this is not a "peace", this is total destruction. France could have agreed to some small rectifications of European borders, and some more larger transfer of territories abroad, but to convince Paris to transfer the entire colonial empire Germany would have to do something more than just winning an offensive.

BTW, at this date Germany was exhausted, and probably would even have agreed to a return to the 1914 western (not eastern !!) status quo.

BTW, youy forgot to list the two single most interesting colonies (with an eye against USA): Guadaloupe and Martinique.

Davide

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Post by Tim Smith » 02 Jan 2006 12:36

An off-topic post by David Pastore about a French invasion of England was split off into a new thread of its own.

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Re: The Modern German Empire

Post by Davide Pastore » 02 Jan 2006 12:52

Nick89 wrote:3. Who could be a leader for a fascist France?


There is a book, described in another thread ( viewtopic.php?t=92853 ), which paid some attention to this problem and came to the conclusion that a likely candidate could have been Petain.

Davide

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Post by soldat_m56 » 03 Jan 2006 01:10

I realise some of my colony choices were wrong. That's why I put them up for review as hypothetical. Why would Germany want Guadeloupe and Martinique if they have French Guayana? If you notice, I leave them to France along with French Polynesia, Indochina, Madagascar, French Somililand (and at your suggestion Algeria and Tunisia) but I leave Marokko because of German conflicts w/ France over its status in 1911.

Germany sets up puppet government in Poland, the Balitc states, Ukraine, Finland, and Russia.
Mainland Germany gains little actual territory (possibly W. Vosges) but its economic and military power and influence are far greater.

Why Britain should have done that?

Ah, Britain. Yes I know I need a reasonable way of defeating her (and not your joke). I know the Hochseefleet wouldn't be able. Also as an Italian maybe you could suggest what happens to Italy.

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Post by Jon G. » 03 Jan 2006 01:43

More as a nomenclature comment than adding anything of real substance, but the Germany you outline would really be a strongly Prussian-dominated German hegemony, not a fully unified Germany as such.

The Prussian dominance might well mean that there would still be room for a Völkisch/Nazi movement to develop in parts of Germany, particularly if the world experiences an economic crisis similar to the 1930s depression in your scenario.

Fascist France sounds credible. I think you could give French proto-fascism a strong anti-semitic slant, similar to Nazism's. Rising anti-semitism appears to have been directly connected to losing the last war.

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Post by Roddoss72 » 03 Jan 2006 06:17

Well Nick89

Good thread i can answer question 2, Japan would be allied to Britain in WWII as the Japanese Government and Britain were allies during WWI ans as because the treaties of "Verseille and Washington" would not have taken place to dishonour the Japanese Empire after a Real Time Japanese Government.

In what year does Operation Blücher take place in 1917 or 1918, also you mention a new Puppet Government in Russia, this means of course that Germany has to readdress its setting up of the Soviet Union in the first place, as it played a pivitol role in the Communists getting started in Russia, more later as i am being kicked off this library computer. cya

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Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Jan 2006 13:49

Nick89 wrote:Why would Germany want Guadeloupe and Martinique if they have French Guayana?


Because G. & M. were naval bases, while Guyana had only Papillon's island to show.

Nick89 wrote:Also as an Italian maybe you could suggest what happens to Italy.


We had a major internal riot phase after we won the war. Had we lost it, I can only suggest the scene would have been worse. Probably a full-fledged revolution, with full complement of civil war, firing squads in the streets, etc. Just anything could have happened.

Davide

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Re: The Modern German Empire

Post by Major Major » 03 Jan 2006 18:47

Nick89 wrote:1. I know Krönprinz Wilhelm would have become Wilhelm III in 1941, but who would succeed him after he died in 1951, and who would be kaiser today?


Kronprinz Wilhelm's oldest son was Prinz Wilhelm. IOW he declined the succession to marry a commoner in 1933, and died in battle in 1940.

That passed the succession to his younger brother, Prinz Louis-Ferdinand, who died in 1994.

IOW Louis-Ferdinand's oldest son was Prinz Friedrich-Wilhelm, who declined the succession to marry a commoner (where have we heard that before?) as did his next brother, Prinz Michael. The third son, Prinz Louis-Ferdinand, died in a military training accident, which means that the current claimant is his son, Prinz Georg Ferdinand.

But Louis-Ferdinand married a Russian Grand Duchess, which just might not happen in this world.

Make of that what you think appropriate.

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Re: The Modern German Empire

Post by Davide Pastore » 03 Jan 2006 19:03

Major Major wrote:Kronprinz Wilhelm's oldest son was Prinz Wilhelm. IOW he declined the succession to marry a commoner in 1933, and died in battle in 1940.


Maybe I'm malicious, but I'm sure that, had not his empire disappeared 15 years before, he might have acted otherwise.

Davide

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Post by soldat_m56 » 03 Jan 2006 22:46

In what year does Operation Blücher take place in 1917 or 1918, also you mention a new Puppet Government in Russia, this means of course that Germany has to readdress its setting up of the Soviet Union in the first place, as it played a pivitol role in the Communists getting started in Russia...

I would guess 1918. Make the Americans slower to get to Europe and of course there's the quarrel about whose command they would be under. Yes Germany would have to help the Whites. They would not hesitate to destroy the Soviet Union as it has outlived its usefulness after the czar was killed and would just be a serious threat. OTL Germany (well really the Freikorps) did battle Reds in Finland and the Balitc states. Now Germany must make the Whites think they are helping them "free" Russia. After the Reds are defeated in war, they will set up a government of pro-German Russians, possibly like that of Kerensky's (in theory) but of course the Germans have the real control of the country. The Reds will probably cause insurrections from time to time after the end of the Russian Civil War, making Germany have to commit troops to Russia.

I guess it's just pick and choose when it comes to who would have been the next kaiser. The man's personality would be a little help too. While we're on this topic, who would have the Austrian (AH collapses) kaisers have been? I can't remeber when Karl I died, was it 1922? His son Otto would still have been too young then. Does anyone know who is the head of the Habsburgs today?

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Post by Major Major » 03 Jan 2006 23:58

Nick89 wrote:While we're on this topic, who would have the Austrian (AH collapses) kaisers have been? I can't remeber when Karl I died, was it 1922? His son Otto would still have been too young then. Does anyone know who is the head of the Habsburgs today?


Karl I died in 1922. He might have lived longer, had it not been for the deposition, but . . . presumably Otto would have succeeded under a regency.

Otto is still head of the Habsburgs.

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Post by waldorf » 04 Jan 2006 00:05

Karl I died in 1922. He might have lived longer, had it not been for the deposition, but . . . presumably Otto would have succeeded under a regency.

Otto is still head of the Habsburgs.


If the Habsburgs would have remained rulers of Austria, Otto would have ruled for approx. 83 years. Here is a link to Karl's descendents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_of_Austria


Chris

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Christian W.
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Post by Christian W. » 04 Jan 2006 00:18

useless)
(the German Navy)

I would't say so...

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Post by Davide Pastore » 04 Jan 2006 08:06

Christian W. wrote:
useless)
(the German Navy)I would't say so...


No problem, Christian. If you want to prove I'm mistaken, please list to the forum all the useful things the Hochseeflotte did during the war.

Davide

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