Finnish armor losses?

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JTV
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Post by JTV » 30 Jan 2006 07:19

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Whether there were losses in captured T34 and KV (finnish)?


best regards from Siberia
No, none of the Finnish T-34 or KV-1 were lost. Finnish KV-1E took hit to its front hull armour from Soviet T-34/85 in Portinhoikka, but the projectile bounced and the vehicle succeeded reversing to safety (crew of the particular tank was pretty shaken though). One of the Finnish T-34/76 suffered damage (track broken and one roadwheel blown off) because of antitank mine during Lapland War against the Germans. These most serious close calls. Finnish military never lost any T-28 (2 captured during Winter War and 5 more during early Continuation War) either.

Jarkko

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Post by JTV » 30 Jan 2006 07:49

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Sorry .... my bad English......
Does anyone have more info on this? Until now I've been under the impression that the only Finnish armored losses of the Winter War were suffered during the battle of Honkaniemi. BTW, I don't think the Renault tanks can be counted as armored losses because they were used solely as dug-in bunkers.
My information - Honkaniemi - 3 Vickers 6tE - damaged
- 3 Vickers 6tE captured (112 armor batalion 35 light armor brigade Red Army)

Soviet losses Honkaniemi - 2 damaged T-26 (Are restored in some days)


sours - Kolomiets M. Tanks in Winter War 2001 #3 p.62-64

29 feb 1940 - finnish attack Pero station area

2 Vickers 6tE - 4 armor company version russian 20 brigade heavy tanks (tank T-28). Result of fight - Vickers 6tE - destroyed.

sours - Kolomiets M. Tanks in Winter War 2001 #3 p.64


16 feb mobile Group of the colonel V.I.Baranov captured 8 Renault FT (Kjamerja station). Tanks were on railway platforms. Group Baranov destroyed 12 antitank gun Bofors and 16 mashine guns. Russian losses - 2 BT 5\7 destroyed and 6 damaged(Are restored in some days).

sours - Pavlov M. Zheltov I. Pavlov I. BT tanks. Moscow 2001 years.


Best regards from Ice Siberia!
Finnish tank losses for Honkaniemi can be counted as either five or six Vickers 6-ton tanks. Five of these tanks were left to battlefield. The Finns succeeded salvaging the sixth damaged tank from the battlefield, but it was never repaired. According Finnish sources four Soviet tanks were knocked out in Honkaniemi battle.

Few days after Honkaniemi one more Vickers 6 tanks were lost in battle against several T-26 and T-28, which had broken through Finnish lines - it succeeded knocking out two T-26 before T-28 destoyed it. Few days before ending of Winter War one Finnish Vickers 6 ton tank got stuck to some rocks and as finding towing vehicle proved impossible its tank crew has no other chance than demolishing their own vehicle.

The eight Renault FT-17 were intended to be dug into Mannerheim-line as bunker replacements, but what I remember they were waiting to be unloading in nearby train station (Säiniö?) when the Soviets succeeded achieving breakthrough in Summa sector at mid-February 1940. Another batch of these tanks were taken to Taipale peninsula and dug in as replacement bunkers down there. As mentioned Finnish military never used them in combat as tanks during Winter War as they were considered obsolete. Finnish losses for Winter War included also few captured Komsomolets A-20.

BTW: I have lately been gathering information about Finnish losses of T-26 tanks during Continuation War (from war diaries of tank units, various report, documents of armour repair shop etc), but the information is yet unprocessed.

The total number of 37-mm Bofors at-guns (37 PstK/36) lost in battle during Winter War was 60. This was for the large part because Finnish troops lacked antitank-rifles, so antitank-guns had to brougth to immediate front-line, which made them rather vulnerable.

Jarkko

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Post by Esa K » 30 Jan 2006 08:12

JTV wrote:Finnish KV-1E took hit to its front hull armour
Wasn´t the Finnish KV-1 that got the hits at Juustila-Portinhoikka road not the KV-1E but the KV-I m1942 (with registration number Ps. 271-1), IIRC, it still at Parola armour museum have the hits at the front painted red.


regards

Esa K

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Post by JTV » 30 Jan 2006 09:03

Esa K wrote:
JTV wrote:Finnish KV-1E took hit to its front hull armour
Wasn´t the Finnish KV-1 that got the hits at Juustila-Portinhoikka road not the KV-1E but the KV-I m1942 (with registration number Ps. 271-1), IIRC, it still at Parola armour museum have the hits at the front painted red.


regards

Esa K
You are correct - my bad. :oops: The particular tank wasn't KV-1E m 1940, but KV-1 m 1942 with cast turret. It seems that the projectile hit first to angle of front hull armour and bounced up from there, then it took off part of the additional front armour plate and hit to front turret, from where it bounced off. When it comes to other other mark of hit in other side of the turret it is much more difficult what did that - part of the asme projectile broken off, piece from front armour or second projectile?

These photos show the signs of the bounced projectile(s) (as you mentioned they have been marked with the red paint):
http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps271001/ps271001.html

Jarkko

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Post by Landsturm » 17 Feb 2007 18:38


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Post by larth » 26 Aug 2007 21:48

Esa K wrote:Around 03.30 29/6 1944 a counterattack was started in direction Syökkäänlahti with two T-34´s two T-26´s, one armoured car, and one of the captured ISU-152 and two StuG´s from 2./Ryn.Tyk.P + some infantry from JPr. and JR 50. Some bit to the west on the Portinhoikka roadcross in the Viborg direction the ISU-152 was sent as the first of the armoured vechiles in the row to knock out two T-34´s, the gunner missed and in the Soviet counterfire from the T-34´s the Finn ISU-152 was hit, and then burnt. The crew managed to escape.
Is there any map available on this area?

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Post by JTV » 27 Aug 2007 04:35

larth wrote:
Esa K wrote:Around 03.30 29/6 1944 a counterattack was started in direction Syökkäänlahti with two T-34´s two T-26´s, one armoured car, and one of the captured ISU-152 and two StuG´s from 2./Ryn.Tyk.P + some infantry from JPr. and JR 50. Some bit to the west on the Portinhoikka roadcross in the Viborg direction the ISU-152 was sent as the first of the armoured vechiles in the row to knock out two T-34´s, the gunner missed and in the Soviet counterfire from the T-34´s the Finn ISU-152 was hit, and then burnt. The crew managed to escape.
Is there any map available on this area?
Check (Finnish 1:20000 map printed 1938) this, the correct road from village of Portinhoikka is towards south (marked with text "Viipuriin" = to Viipuri):
http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Finsko-Finl ... 411104.jpg

Jarkko

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Post by larth » 27 Aug 2007 07:12

JTV wrote:Check (Finnish 1:20000 map printed 1938) this, the correct road from village of Portinhoikka is towards south (marked with text "Viipuriin" = to Viipuri):
http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Finsko-Finl ... 411104.jpg

Jarkko

Thank you, Jarkko! Brilliant - much better than I had hoped for!

cheers,
Lars

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 21 Jan 2010 11:50

Alex Yeliseenko wrote: 16 feb mobile Group of the colonel V.I.Baranov captured 8 Renault FT (Kjamerja station). Tanks were on railway platforms. Group Baranov destroyed 12 antitank gun Bofors and 16 mashine guns. Russian losses - 2 BT 5\7 destroyed and 6 damaged(Are restored in some days).
Kjamerja = Kämerä. There is a mentions of an air raid and artillery fire which destroyed many (all?) of the vehicles on the morning of 14 February 1940. This might have contributed to the loss of the tanks.

1. Panssarikomppania, SPK 2485.
13 February 1940. 4.30 a.m. Change in situation has prevented moving the tanks to planned fixed positions and for now they are subjected to 3.D near Kämärä station.
14 February 1940. 8.00 p.m. Res.ltn. Laurila and Tarkka left for investigate fixed positions for the tanks at Näykkijärvi. 10.00 p.m. The tanks were began to transfer from Kämärä to Näykkijärvi area. Only five tanks were possible to move. Machine guns, gun barrels and tools were removed from the others.
13.2.40. [...] 4.30. [...] Muuttuneen tilanteen johdosta ei pv:ja voitu siirtää kiinteiksi pesäkkeiksi ennen suunniteltuihin paikkoihin vaan jäivät ne toistaiseksi Kämärän aseman lähelle 3D:n käyttöön.
14.2.40. [...] 20.00. Lähtivät Res.luutnantit Laurila ja Tarkka tiedustelemaan Näykkijärven päästä pv:lle kiinteitä asemapaikkoja. 22.00. Lähdettiin pv:ja siirtämään Kämärältä Näykkijärven maastoon. Pv:ilta ei saatu siirrettyä muita kuin 5 kpl. Kaikista muista otettiin pois kk:t ja tykin putket sekä työvälineet.

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by JTV » 21 Jan 2010 21:13

Martti Kujansuu wrote:
Kjamerja = Kämerä. There is a mentions of an air raid and artillery fire which destroyed many (all?) of the vehicles on the morning of 14 February 1940. This might have contributed to the loss of the tanks.

1. Panssarikomppania, SPK 2485.
13 February 1940. 4.30 a.m. Change in situation has prevented moving the tanks to planned fixed positions and for now they are subjected to 3.D near Kämärä station.
14 February 1940. 8.00 p.m. Res.ltn. Laurila and Tarkka left for investigate fixed positions for the tanks at Näykkijärvi. 10.00 p.m. The tanks were began to transfer from Kämärä to Näykkijärvi area. Only five tanks were possible to move. Machine guns, gun barrels and tools were removed from the others.
You might also want to check the first pages from war diary of 1. Erillinen Panssarijoukkue (1st Detached Tank Platoon) in February of 1940. It looks like uncomplete report according which six Renault FT 17 tanks were transferred to Näykkijärvi area: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1472181

The raeort also tells that the other tanks could not be transferred from Kämärä station to Näykkijärvi due to them failing to start (due to problems caused by cold weather) and seem to suggest that the tanks used in the frontline in Näykkijärvi were likely all armed with 7.62-mm (tank) machinegun M/09-31. According document weapons and ammunition were removed from those tanks that could not be transferred from the train station.

Jarkko

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Harri » 22 Jan 2010 17:04

The original combat report of 4. Panssarikomppania (4./Pans.P) (4th Armoured Company) led by Lt Oiva Heinonen (later Horte) describing the battle of Honkaniemi and later phases of the company can be found here (only in Finnish, starting from page 3):

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kui ... 400&sy=400

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Re:The KV-1Hit

Post by John Hilly » 26 Jan 2010 11:01

Terve!

Here's a picture 20 taken years ago. The hits are well visible:

Image

The boy in the picture has nowadays 2 children. So time passes... :D

Greets
Juha
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Hanski » 09 Feb 2010 18:42

The ISU-152 self-propelled gun at the Panssarimuseo (Armour Museum), Parola.
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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by Mangrove » 26 Apr 2010 18:16

A quick browsing of Ps.D's diaries provided me with these total losses. I have not included the StuG or BT-42 losses.

Date + Place + Unit + Type + Cause. Total of 19 T-26s, two DKWs, two Stalinetz, a ISU-122, a Norton, a T-34, a truck and a Zündapp.

12.6.1944. Kyyrölä [?]. 21. Polttoaineosasto. Fuel truck. Shot on fire by enemy aeroplane.
15.6.1944. Kuuterselkä. Unknown. Stalinetz № 16368. Left on the battlefield.
16.6.1944. Hämeenkylä. I/2./I/Ps.Pr. Unknown ["Ps. 133"]. Destroyed by Soviet satchel charge.
16.6.1944. Hämeenkylä. I/2./I/Ps.Pr. T-26 № 163-5. Did not start.
16.6.1944. Perkjärvi. Unknown. Stalinetz № 24266. Left on the battlefield.

17.6.1944. Perkjärvi. 1./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Five hits from AT-weapons.
17.6.1944. Suulajärvi. II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Did not start.
17.6.1944. Perkjärvi. Unknown. Norton № 56060. Left on the battlefield.
17.6.1944. Perkjärvi. Unknown. DKW № 20092. Left on the battlefield.
18.6.1944. Maisniemi. I/2./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Destroyed by enemy AT-weapons.

18.6.1944. Maisniemi. I/2./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Destroyed by enemy AT-weapons.
19.6.1944. Metsäkylä. 4./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Destroyed by enemy ATG.
19.6.1944. Metsäkylä. 4./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Damaged and set on fire.
19.6.1944. Sommee. 5./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Accidently destroyed by own ATG.
20.6.1944. Säiniö. Unknown. DKW № 38515. Left on the battlefield.

23.6.1944. Juustila. 3./I/Ps.Pr. T-34. Fell in a canal.
26.6.1944. Kölhi. 1./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Accidently destroyed by own tanks.
26.6.1944. Viipuri. Unknown. Zündapp № 25479. Broken tyre and a wounded driver.
26.6.1944. Vakkila. I/Ps.Pr. T-26 № 164-4. Enemy 20mm ATR.
26.6.1944. Portinhoikka. I/5./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Own[?] mine.

27.6.1944. Vakkila. II/4./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Damaged by enemy infantry, left on the battlefield.
28.6.1944. Piispala. 2./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Damaged by aerial bombs, left on the battlefield.
28.6.1944. Juustila. 2./I/Ps.Pr. T-26? Fell in a canal.
29.6.1944. Portinhoikka. Ryn.Tyk.P? ISU-152. Destroyed by enemy T-34s and 75mm AA-gun.
29.6.1944. Torikka. II/5./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Did not start, later burned.

30.6.1944. Juustila. 6./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Did not start.
30.6.1944. Juustila. 6./II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Did not start.
30.6.1944. Portinhoikka. 6/II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Fell in a ditch, left on the battlefield.
30.6.1944. Portinhoikka. 6/II/Ps.Pr. T-26? Broken track, left on the battlefield.

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Re: Finnish armor losses?

Post by larth » 26 Apr 2010 18:46

... a ISU-122, ...
A typo.
29.6.1944. Portinhoikka. Ryn.Tyk.P? ISU-152. Destroyed by enemy T-34s and 75mm AA-gun.
Intriguing, I haven't seen the AA gun mentioned before.

What is a DKW?

Thanks for the list!

Lars

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