Treblinka rail spur.

[robota]

I was browsing some of the surviving Treblinka camp and one photo particular of the rail spur - this particular stretch of track seems most unlikely to have been able to have carried full strength trains on it. It is simply not adequately built.



Given that it was reasonably common to use rail track to facilitate manual transport of building material and land fill, but rail track that was not designed and could carry normal rail traffic. I wonder if this track fits into this category.

The absence of any sleepers strongly suggests this. Under the weight of a heavily laden train it would either sink into the earth or simply buckle.

On the other hand it would be perfect for connecting the gravel pit at Treblinka I to the the main rail track 2-3 kms away.

Any suggestions?
The caption reads:
"A photograph take by a Soviet photographer in 1944. The gate through which the convoys passed. In the background is the Recieving [sic] Camp grounds. The fences were woven with pine boughs to prevent observation into the camp."

[alf]

one photo particular of the rail spur - this particular stretch of track seems most unlikely to have been able to have carried full strength trains on it. It is simply not adequately built.

Are you trying to infer that the Action Reinhardt Camp at Treblinka did not exist? Where is the link to the photo you have posted? At what site did you get it?

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html shows more pictures. Including the one you have posted but a different caption.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html shows pictures taken by the Kurt Franz the Commandant of Treblinka. The pictures are the German attempts to destroy all evidence of what they had done.

And since your into trains perhaps the report of the Treblinka Station Master will help

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html

[robota]

Are you trying to infer that the Action Reinhardt Camp at Treblinka did not exist? Where is the link to the photo you have posted? At what site did you get it?

Not exactly. I was trying to determine if that sleeperless free standing rail tracks can taken heavy laden freight trains.
The I got the photo from this article, which purports to use all the photographic evidence to reconstruct the layout of Treblinka 2, unfortunately I am not really familiar with the image's history. I agree, it does have a "could have been taken anywhere" feel about it.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/

Thank you for your links, I will endeavour to look over them over the next few days.

In the meantime, do you agree that it is unlikely that these tracks would have taken passenger trains? Perhaps it was a parallel track laid down specifically to accommodate manual pulled trucks carrrying landfill from the gravel mine at Treblinka I?

Any suggestions? I was hoping for responses that are not quite so defensive.

[steve248]

I think the photo above actually has the answer to the question in the photo - just over halfway
there is evidence of uncovered sleepers, indicating the others were covered by loose earth.
Maybe it is an optical illusion but this photo shows a slight uphill gradient that I don't recall
seeing when I was at Treblinka last year. And incidentally, the present landscape surrounds
the camp site and rails with pine woods.

Checking other photos on the deathcamps.org website, the photo above is described as
"Rails at the former Ramp #1", the photo entited "Rails at the former Ramp #2" show
more sleepers uncovered and some covered.

For whatever reason the sleepers were or became covered; you cannot have the rails
simply bolted on nailed to the bare earth; what happens when it rains? The earth here
is sandy as I recall so sleepers as always were a must.

Further checks on the website have Kurt Franz's photos from Treblinka. In this series
photo #8 shows an excavator in action with two SS men standing on the bucket in mid air.
Probably against all Health & Safety legislation of the time and even more so now, but
that's another story.

Steve

[Fritz the Rat]

Here are the sleepers.

Fritz

[robota]

I should clarify my query.

This is not a debate of "was there a rail spur to Treblinka 2". Rather were these tracks photographed in 1944 the tracks along which large passenger trains and freight cars travelled.

The answer is clearly no, despite some sections of track that do show very rudimentary and very small irregular sleepers, it is inconceivable that these would be sufficient for normal rolling stock.

There are two possibilities
1. With the destruction of Treblinka II and the covering of traces the previous rail track was removed and placed with tracks sufficient for the manual haulage of landfill from the quarry further along to the main line.
2. The old tracks are still there but out of view and running parallel.

The explanation that the sleepers have all sunk into the soil and not visible is not credible in my opinion, nor is the claim that those irregular planks of wood were capable of bearing heavily laden passenger trains.

However the use of rail gauges for assisting manual labor and construction was very common in the KZ system. There are a number of photos in Birkenau showing track, similar to above, that is clearly unsuitable for normal rolling stock.

Here is another photo that shows a similar tracks construct with off cuts as sleepers.


http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_doc/ph ... 97?hr=null

I am sure no one would consider this as track which death trains came rolling along!

[walterkaschner]

Long ago, I spent the summer between my last year in High School and my first year in College working on a repair gang for the Pennsylvania Railroad. Tamping ties (sleepers), leveling track and laying steel from 7:00AM to 3:30PM was the hardest physical labor I've ever done, but I look back on that summer with pleasant memories. In any event, I learned a little about railways and loads, and have to agree with robota that the track shown in his photo does not appear capable of bearing normal freight or passenger rolling stock. Although what appear to be makeshift ties are visible, they appear of irregular size and too flimsy to support a locomotive with boxcars loaded with human cargo. My guess would lie with robota's first alternative, as it would seem needlessly redundant to construct a flimsy second set of tracks parallel to the main normal load bearing set.

Regards, Kaschner

[sallyg]

This is not a debate of "was there a rail spur to Treblinka 2". Rather were these tracks photographed in 1944 the tracks along which large passenger trains and freight cars travelled. The answer is clearly no, despite some sections of track that do show very rudimentary and very small irregular sleepers, it is inconceivable that these would be sufficient for normal rolling stock.

The photos show sleepers, of indeterminate dimension due to some material, possibly new ballasting, covering much of the sleepers.

There are two possibilities
1. With the destruction of Treblinka II and the covering of traces the previous rail track was removed and placed with tracks sufficient for the manual haulage of landfill from the quarry further along to the main line.

Except that aggregate, as necessary as it is, is a high weight commodity. Gravel is very heavy, running from 1500 kg/m3 to 2000 kg/m3 depending on sand and moisture content.
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm



The handling of aggregate is energy intensive, both in human and mechanical terms. Why would a perfectly adequate spur running from the main line to TI be ripped up and replaced with a narrow gauge line? This would entail reloading at Treblinka Station onto standard gauge cars; double handling is a waste of time and resources.

The presence of a standard spur to a gravel pit is normal. It would not constitute something needing explanation.

2. The old tracks are still there but out of view and running parallel.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... ndex.shtml

and

The explanation that the sleepers have all sunk into the soil and not visible is not credible in my opinion, nor is the claim that those irregular planks of wood were capable of bearing heavily laden passenger trains.

The weight of humans is approximately 975 kg/m3 (people float). The limiting factor for rail transport is ground pressure. Bulk aggregate will outweigh the (relatively) loosely packed people in the covered goods wagons generally used for transport of victims.

We are unable to determine the dimensions of the supports for the rails due to a layer of overburden. Such spillage is common from bulk cars such as are used for aggregate. They may be "planks", i.e. 50mm thick, or they may be full depth sleepers, i.e. 200mm thick. Likewise, the spacing and bearing surface is difficult to determine. Reballasting of a rail line involves laying a swathe of ballast (gravel) along and on top of the existing sleepers. Vibration of rail traffic over time causes this ballast to work its way down between the sleepers.

However the use of rail gauges for assisting manual labor and construction was very common in the KZ system. There are a number of photos in Birkenau showing track, similar to above, that is clearly unsuitable for normal rolling stock.

Indeed. The use of prefabricated sections of narrow gauge line with minimal numbers of sleepers was, and remains common. They are installed for a short time, for a specific reason, and then removed.

For a thread that addresses many of these issues, those of overburden and narrow gauge rail lines, in this case at Birkenau, see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81710

Here is another photo that shows a similar tracks construct with off cuts as sleepers.

http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_doc/ph ... 97?hr=null

I am sure no one would consider this as track which death trains came rolling along!

I don't currently see anything to indicate otherwise.

[Fritz the Rat]

new address: http://www.death-camps.org (now with hyphen).

Fritz

[PrudentRegret]

Last year the Treblinka Museum announced the addition of an artifact discovered in 2016, a narrow-gauge rail:


https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/en/2020/03/2 ... ka-museum/#


Did this narrow-gauge railway only connect the Treblinka I penal camp to Treblinka station, or did it connect all the way to the Malkinia junction, about 2 km further away?

[PrudentRegret]

Here is another image of the remains of the Treblinka II/I spur running towards the camp next to the Siedlce line:



For reference, here is a photograph of a railway from a similar angle which shows the width of a standard gauge railway:



The Siedlce line was a standard gauge:



We can verify this fact by overlaying this photograph of the Siedlce line with a similar angle of view, and we see the rails correspond with each-other.



The blue lines overlapping the yellow Standard Gauge lines show that the Seidlce line was standard gauge, which is a known fact.

But corresponding the image above to the reference image shows that the gauge of the Treblinka spur was narrower:



The Treblinka spur was about metre-gauge. The rails in this picture could not possibly have accommodated standard gauge, fully loaded rolling passenger stock.

[Linkagain]

Was this spur part of Prewar Gravel Pit operations?

[PrudentRegret]

Yes it was, it was constructed in the interwar period:

Treblinka I was a gravel quarry equipped with heavy machinery, essential to the production of concrete and road construction. Before the German occupation, the mega quarry was owned by the Polish industrialist Marian Łopuszyński who built a railway track connecting the mine with Małkinia–Sokołów Podlaski junction...

The quarry became vital during the German attack on the Soviet Union, supplying gravel for the strategic road-building programme around the German–Soviet border...

A narrow gauge for industrial use would correspond to these images of the Treblinka spur. Most of the narrow gauge that came under the control of the Ostbahn (General Government) was for industrial use such as this.

[PrudentRegret]

Also, here is a re-hosted version of the image which was the subject of OP's post:



The caption reads:

A photograph taken by a Soviet photographer in 1944. The gate through which the convoys passed. In the background is the Receiving Camp grounds. The fences were woven with pine boughs to prevent observation into the camp. The fences were woven with pine boughs to prevent observation into the camp.

According to the analysis my previous post, the railway in this image appears to be a meter gauge railway.

[Linkagain]

Thanks for answearing the question