Whose Tiger is it?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 07 Apr 2006 20:27

Image

The Polish operational report says that 2 "Panthers" were knocked out on 15th August. Both tanks were knocked out near Jort (10th Mounted Rifles and the M10s). The report says that another "Panther" was captured.

It is obvious that those "Panthers" were Tigers in fact. The captured "Panther" is Tiger "214" of course. Now, we have an information that the two other tanks ("Panthers") were of the same mark - it's clear that both were Tigers. Probably both were from 102 battalion (although one could have been from 101; the last tank of that battalion I think).

Your version that the photo above might have been made near Jort may well be true.

The Polish report includes the coordinates of the wrecks. Both were in a small wood southwest of Jort (it's probably the wood mentioned by Gutowski where "214" was capstured). I'll scan it for you soon.

There is a lot of books dedicated to 10th Mounted Rifles. All of them mention only the capturing of "214". So I think that the two other Tigers were knocked out by the M10s.

Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 13 Apr 2006 15:52

I've done some research and I've found new deatails about the engagement near Jort.

The real cause for which the Germans retreated weren't the anti-infantry shells at all. I've checked in a whole plenty of books. The conclusion is simple: they had been outflanked! What is more: by 12 M10s from the anti-tank detatchment that was supporting 10th Mounted Rifles. 1st squadron of Cromwell tanks passed Jort and was trying to cross the river south of the town. Another tank squadron (the 3rd) backed by a company of motorized infantry (from 10th Dragoons Regiment) was fighting German infantry in Jort.

Here is a map:



Image

There were three Tiger tanks in the little forest west of Jort. As I wrote before one was captured (214). two other withdrew passing by Polish 2nd squadron. Cromwells were shooting at them but without any result. They joined the other 4 tanks positioned along the road from Le Brueil to Jort.

I used to think that those Tigers left the forest becouse of the attack of a platoon of Polish Comwells (Liutenant Swiercz's platoon; as I wrote before that attack was a total coincidence). Then the entire German detatchment withdrew scared by the anti-infantry shells. This is not true.

Shortly after Polish units entered Jort (1st squadron of 10th Mounted Rifles) two German tanks tried to counterattack. They were advancing along the route from Le Brueil to Jort (more less). They ran across 12 Polish M10s which were positioned west of Jort in order to protect the flank of the 1st squadron. Both tanks were knocked out (there are direct coordinates in the divisional report; I marked the wrecks with two green dots).

The operational report written by General Maczek says that both tanks were Panthers (it's weird as the captured Tiger number 214 is counted as a Panther).

More sensible are the infomation that can be found in 10th Mounted Rifles' war diary. It says that one tank was a Panther and the other one was a Tiger. Colonel Wysocki in his book about the Polish division also mentions this particular incident and confirms that those were a Panther and a Tiger and both were destroyed by the tank destroyers.

So I think that it should be safe to assume that those tanks were really a Panther and a Tiger. But why are the 2 Tigers mentioned as "Mk Vs" in the operational report? My explanation is that General Maczek once again was very afraid of showing off. He didn't check the information personally so he preffered to write that the tanks were "Mk Vs".


Perhaps you might be curious why I'm so sure that Panthers paticipated in that engagements (after all even an original report is onlu a piece of paper and paper can stan anything...).

Here is what I've found in a book about the 10th Mounted Rifles.

Image

I think it's the Panther mentioned in the Polish reports. The picture was among those illustrating the first week of fighting. The engagement near Jort was the only fight of the 10th Mounted Rifles in which a Panther was claimed. There where two other occasions when the Regiment clashed with Panthers but no German tanks were knocked out. So I've got two good reasons to believe that this one is the Panther that I'm looking for.

What is more tha camouflage is very similar to the one used by 12th SS Panthers. The number is the same (red or black and white). Moreover the 3rd comapny of the 12th SS Panzerregiment was in action north of Falaise in those days.

The fact that there were some 12th SS' Panthers indeed provides us very interesting information about that German hotchpotch tank unit.

It must have consisted of at least some part of Hitlerjugend's Panther battalion and some leftovers of 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion.

But Gutowski mentions 4 Tigers whereas there were only 2 Tigers in the 101st battalion at that time (could be even one!). I think that there also were 1st and 3rd Companies of 102nd SS Heavy Tank Battalion!

Kurt Meyer wrote that 102nd battalion was put under command of 85 ID and positioned around Potigny (I mean 1st and 3rd Comapny; the 2nd Company was cooperating with the 271st ID). I Fey's "Armor battles of the Waffen SS" is quite a long quotation from 102nd battalion's war diary. It says that during the fighting on 14th August the Tigers were cooperating with Hitlerjugend's Panthers near hill 184. Personally I believe that the 2 remaining tanks of 101st battalion were also with them. Hubert Meyer says that two Tigers (note the number!) were supporting 85 ID near Montboint on that day. One was knocked out. Quite possible that Helmut Wendorff was in that tank.

I believe that those three units mentioned above created one hotchpotch tank company which was facing the Poles on 15th August.

Now about Helmut Wendorff. Wolfgang Schneider says that Wendorff's tank was knocked out southwest of Maizieres. It was set on fire. Probably it was the Tiger from Montboint. It couldn't be the tank captured by the Poles as 214 was nearly intact (let alone the contradictory locations and date). This means that Wendorff wasn't using his tank on 14th August.


I think that the Tiger in a forest might be the Wendorff's tank. There are some forests between Maizieres and Monboint; there are also some country lanes running through them. Moreover that Tiger was surprised. According to Schneider so was the Wendorff's Tiger (by two Shermans). Furthermore it was on fire just like Wendorff's Tiger. Two hatches are open. For whole I know only two members of Wendorff's crew managed to bail out. Among the was the driver. The driver's hatch is open. What is more Epaney where the Czechs were stationed is some 5 kilometres south of the woods between Montboint and Maizieres...


Image


I don't like the photo so I wouldn't regret if that one was the Tiger knocked out near Montboint :wink: :lol:


I think this one may be the Tiger knocked out by the Polish tank destroyers:

Image

Now some funny stuff.

Yann was speaking here about Unterscharfuhrer Sowa as the man who probably had commanded the knocked out Tiger 214.
I've laerned that during a clash with the grenadiers of 85th ID northwest of Jort the commander of 3rd platoon of the 3rd squadron (10th Mounetd Rifles), First Liutenant Sowa was slightly wounded... (brothers? call the Hollywood producers! :wink: ).

User avatar
Bayerlein spirit
Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 20 Dec 2002 01:30
Location: France (Lyon)

Tiger and panther

Post by Bayerlein spirit » 13 Apr 2006 20:56

Hello Cyprek,*

At first, many thank for your amazing work, many things to say about, no time this week for me...

Just one information, your panther picture belongs to Pz.rgt. 3 ( 2.Pz ), probably number 314, quite no doubt about identification, location could be near Verrières late july 1944 or 19-22 august southern east of Falaise sector ... I guess Falaise gap ( picture taken in august since poles sector ) when I see background landscape...Vimoutiers or maybe MontOrmel.

The last Tiger taken at rear side get s.SS.Pz.abt 102 camo, it said disabled by crew somewhere on the road Nécy to Vimoutiers via Trun by veteran, no more information about..

Fred
Last edited by Bayerlein spirit on 13 Apr 2006 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 13 Apr 2006 21:15

But why do you think so?

I was thinking about Chambois (lots of Panthers were knocked out there; I know for sure that there were two Panthers knocked out on Mont Ormel; one belonged to "Das Reich") but as I said the picture was surrounded by by photos from the second week of August. I don't think that it is a coincidence - the photo probably belonged to one of the authors... I have no doubt that the Panther was knocked out by the Polish troops. Moreover the environment fits the coordinates.

Why do you think so? Was 12th SS' "314" knocked out earlier the 15th august?

User avatar
Bayerlein spirit
Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 20 Dec 2002 01:30
Location: France (Lyon)

Post by Bayerlein spirit » 13 Apr 2006 21:44

2.Pz 314

About identification, I tried to make a 2.Pz font 314 and comparison with 434 destroyed somewhere in Normandie and 302 captured and parked near Balleroy, very similar font number with black number and white outline...

Many panther were destroyed near/in Mont-Ormel ( 2.SS, 2.Pz, I./16, I./24...)

Fred
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Bayerlein spirit
Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 20 Dec 2002 01:30
Location: France (Lyon)

Post by Bayerlein spirit » 13 Apr 2006 22:43

Hi,

In spite of low quality, see this unknow Tiger with better contrast, maybe someone will be find something more to have several clues for an identification.

Fred



Image

Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 13 Apr 2006 22:49

Probably you're right. Pity, I thought I'd got that goddamn Panther... But I think it's Chambois (10th Mounted Rifles fought there). Two Panthers were knocked out during 2nd SS counterattack. Another one was destroyed on the road from Chambois to Vimoutiers (through St Pierre). There is a very famous photo of that Panther (they always print it wrongly :lol: ). I think I'll have very interesting photos for you (maybe you've seen it already). A Panther and an SPW (very close to each other - it looks like a car accident). Oh and a Polish Sherman nearby (very close combat). I think it's from 2 SS. There are two shots. I'll include it in another topic.

User avatar
Bayerlein spirit
Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 20 Dec 2002 01:30
Location: France (Lyon)

Post by Bayerlein spirit » 13 Apr 2006 23:40

Cyprek

Yes, I know this Panther/251 destroyed at Boijos, this tank belongs to 4./SS.Pz.rgt. 2, probably 415 as number, no easy to say which unit lost the WH 251, maybe 116.Pz unit.

2.Pz had lost about 25/30 Panther in the Falaise gap, on the road Occagnes to Moissy/Saint-Lambert, most of them abandonned or disabled by crew, impossible in the fog battle to find the escape door ( 19,20,21 august ),

But you are right, it will be an other thread

Fred

User avatar
MarioL
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: 06 Oct 2004 18:40
Location: Deutschland

Post by MarioL » 12 Jul 2006 12:04

101yann wrote: However, Uscha. Kurt Sowa (official mount as of June 6. 1944 : Tiger 222) is said to have lost an arm in the fighting south east of Sassy (could be Jort then !) on August 15 so are we looking at his Tiger here ???
@101yann
do you have a source or a book for Sowa´s wounding

Edit:found it in Agte´s book
Last edited by MarioL on 13 Jul 2006 09:26, edited 1 time in total.

Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 12 Jul 2006 22:06

This is funny stuff about that Sowa as some books published in Poland say thet Sowa participated in the fighting in the Ardennes (as a meber of a tank crew!). One can learn about the quality of some books...

Oh, I believe I've identified that Tiger from the 2nd Comapny (the one provided by Michael). I believe that this is the one knocked out by 24th Lancers (I'm some 80% - sure). Maybe I'll write about it soon.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6881
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Jul 2006 22:15

This one?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
H.v.Holdt
Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 13:08
Location: Germany

Post by H.v.Holdt » 13 Jul 2006 10:06

mmh Cyprek,

Sowa was in the Ardennes and commanded a Tiger.


What is the chance to identify Tiger 223 and Tiger 211. I mean identify wich Tiger they were before.

211, a late Tiger with steelwheels but binocular(is there a pistol port in the turret?), not seen in the 1./SS101 before. Possibly candidats may in the 2.Zug?

223, late hull from a Tiger of 1. or 2./SS101?, but a turret of an Tiger of the 3./SS101.


What about the original Tiger 211, where and when was he lost?

And because i just came across the photo of Tiger 313, where was he abandoned?

Cyprek
Member
Posts: 197
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 21:55
Location: Poland

Post by Cyprek » 13 Jul 2006 13:36

I'll soon write you about my theory concernig Tiger 223. I think I know the place where it is.

Finding out what the original numerals of those Tigers were is a hell of a job. But maybe it's possible.

Going back to Mr Sowa. How is that possible that a handicaped guy could command a Tiger (I mean if yann was correct). I could imagine such a guy working in supplies or some POW camp.


What about the original Tiger 211, where and when was he lost?
"Tigers in Combat" brings no answer. However, for several times the author mentions casualties inflicted to the 2nd Comapny without giving a number of a tank. For instance he says that one Tiger was lost on 20 July.

Tiger 214 was knocked out during the fighting in the area of the Odon river.

Most of those renumbered tank are from the 1st Company (214, 211). I believe that some Zimmerit was removed from 223's hull (left rear) in order to paint a battalion's symbol (which was gone at the time the picture was taken). If I'm correct the hull comes from the 1st Company aswell.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6881
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Jul 2006 00:45

If you look closely you can see the key symbol on both tanks is in more or less the same position. All these symbols are in different positions on SS 101 Tigers, no two are in exactly the same position. Also 221,222,223, and 224 had the symbol painted on the Zimmeritt ansd not cut into it. There is no confirmation any Zug. other than this one used this combination. At the very least the hull must be one of these 4 Tigers and most likely it is 223.
214 is quoted as one of the 3 Tigers lost at Rauray in Schneider but there is only the assumption it was 214 because it was Warmbraun's alloted Tiger.
Interesstingly both the alleged '214' and the renumbered '223' have small pattern Zimmeritt on the turret instesd of the large ridge style on the majority of Tigers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
H.v.Holdt
Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 13:08
Location: Germany

Post by H.v.Holdt » 14 Jul 2006 09:12

Well,

if you dive into these questions it is possibly you come out with the silliest thoughts. The turret of the renumbered 223 is very probably from a Tiger of the 3.Kompanie. Tigers in the 3.Komp. had very similar camo on the left side. This yellow camo patch on the left side of turret bin for eg. is on all Tigers in the 3.Komp. it seems.

If you now search wich Tiger turret from the 3.Komp. is used for the renumbered 223, then you can have the impression that turret of Tiger 314 looks very similar. But thats impossible cause he was lost on the field with Wittmanns 007 near Cintheaux.

Well, it is not forbitten to ask if the Tiger near Wittmanns was really Tiger 314 i hope. This Tiger near Cintheaux has two bottles on the left side of the turret bin. This was not seen on the known photos of 314(but on 311 for example). Close look and compairsion of the turret number bring out some doubts ??

Image

The turret number on Tiger 314 was bigger and more in front of the turret side. If you compaire the "4", you see it is not in the same position.

Is it now an running error with Tiger 314 or should i go to drink a coffee to wake up.

Hartmut

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”