Bavarian Military Order of Maximilian Joseph

[docarchiv]

This one is not unknown!

Leutnant d. R. Karl Ritter von Abt

[docarchiv]

Hello,

an other unknown man!

Kind regards

docarchiv

[docarchiv]

Leutnant Hermann Ritter von Speck as Oberst

[Elwyn W]

Hi Doc,

This has been lying around unidentified by me for a long time. if you have a caption that said it was Karl Ritter Abt, this must be the same person.

Cheers
Elwyn

[docarchiv]

This is how international science works! The name is written on my original photograph. So there is a high grade of evidence!

[AlifRafikKhan]

Hello,

an other unknown man!

Kind regards

docarchiv

Hi Docarchiv, do you know the name of this officer? Because he is so much in resemblance with young Hermann Balck (future Brillantenträger)...

[Glenn2438]

an other unknown man!

The subject is wearing the uniform of an Hauptmann of the Bavarian Landespolizei around 1932/1933. That really narrows the field down to three individuals:

Hauptmann der Lapo Ludwig Ritter v. Würffel
Hauptmann der Lapo Gustav Ritter v. Sailer
Hauptmann der Lapo Georg Ritter v. Hengl

He does not look like Ritter v. Hengl.

Regards
Glenn

[Dave Danner]

an other unknown man!

The subject is wearing the uniform of an Hauptmann of the Bavarian Landespolizei around 1932/1933. That really narrows the field down to three individuals:

Hauptmann der Lapo Ludwig Ritter v. Würffel
Hauptmann der Lapo Gustav Ritter v. Sailer
Hauptmann der Lapo Georg Ritter v. Hengl

He does not look like Ritter v. Hengl.

Regards
Glenn

Both Würffel and Sailer had the Max Joseph, the Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class with Crown and Swords, and the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class, so that takes care of the first three ribbons on the Feldspange. Würffel also had the Prinzregent-Luitpold-Medaille am Bande der Jubiläumsmedaille für die bayerische Armee. Sailer also had the Mecklenburg-Schwerin Militärverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse. Since that last ribbon looks more like the MMV2, I would say Sailer is the better candidate.

Regards,
Dave

[Elwyn W]

v Sailer was a Major when he won the MMJO. v Würffel was only a leutnant. The picture seems to show a landspolizei Oberleutnant or Hauptmann.

Cheers
Elwyn

[Dave Danner]

v Sailer was a Major when he won the MMJO. v Würffel was only a leutnant. The picture seems to show a landspolizei Oberleutnant or Hauptmann.

Cheers
Elwyn

Sailer was an Oberleutnant and Komp.Fhr., 1./32.b.IR. Do you have him mixed up with someone else?

[Elwyn W]

You are right, Dave. You can find that from Bernd's list from this very same thread. Unfortunately I downloaded Christophe Deruelle's list dated 2005 from GMIC.co.uk. It mistakenly stated him as Major


Cheers
Elwyn

[Dave Danner]

I did a painstakingly long and detailed update to that list, including separate pages with full bios for many recipients, which was on my website before ATT decided out of the blue to stop hosting websites. Now it feels like a wasted effort, since much more detailed information can now be found in the Bavarian records on Ancestry.

Here was Sailer's entry:

Given Name: Gustav
Name: Ritter von Sailer
Rank at time of award: OLt.
Unit: Kp.Fhr. 1./32.b.IR
Award date: 27.9.18
Bestowal date: after 1921
Ennoblement date, if applicable: [thereafter]
Other information:
• d.1977
• EK1 (20.12.16), EK2 (26.10.15), BMV4X (22.12.14), BMV4XmKr (4.1.19), MMV2 (21.8.15)

He was one of those awarded after the war, whose "ennoblement" was thus a legal fiction, since there was not a King anymore to grant patents of nobility. But monarchist sentiment remained strong in Bavaria, and the Weimar Republic government allowed the retention of titles under the fiction that they were now part of your legal surname (I say fiction because though the law treated them as surnames, titles continued to follow the rules for titles, not names. Thus MMJO knights, who only had a life patent, did not pass their titles on to their children.).

[Elwyn W]

Hope your effort wasn't completely wasted. I got a lot out of it until it went down. Plus yours was free and nicely done with portraits and Ancestry, while I have not tried, is like going to the library. It will take a while to learn to navigate.

Cheers
Elwyn

[Dave Danner]

Hope your effort wasn't completely wasted. I got a lot out of it until it went down. Plus yours was free and nicely done with portraits and Ancestry, while I have not tried, is like going to the library. It will take a while to learn to navigate.

Cheers
Elwyn

Ancestry is quite useful, but it can be quite frustrating. First, they or the Bavarian archives must have outsourced the transcription of the names and birthdates/birthplaces for the index, as apparently whomever they hired is not a native speaker of German or English, and could not transcribe even simple names and dates correctly. Lord knows I am quite aware that reading Deutsche Schrift is difficult, but some of the errors are just glaring. For example: "Neu York Meremichte Staater Purd Amerika (USA)" ! Also, Ancestry has some automatic software that reads certain abbreviations for placenames, but apparently it only reads them as American postal codes, so the abbrevation Pr for Prussia is treated as PR for Puerto Rico. I would guess that very few Bavarian soldiers were born in Berlin, Puerto Rico. Further, while users can submit corrections for errors in names, they cannot for errors in birthdates and birthplaces.

Second, even if the transcriptions were perfect, the records can be confusing. A Bavarian will often have multiple entries, since each unit to which he was assigned with generate its own entry for its Kriegsrangliste/Kriegsstammrolle. And each entry can be multiple images, since there are tabs and inserts on a page that had to be folded over or moved to photograph the information below.

I suppose there would still be some value to add even with the availability of Ancestry's records, since the Bavarian records don't address post-World War I matters. For instance, for Gustav Ritter von Sailer, I have:

1920 Eintritt in die bayer. Landespolizei
1.1.24 Hptm.d.Lapo.
1.1.35 Maj.d.Lapo
um 1936/37 i.d. Wehrmacht übernommen
x.x.37 versetzt i.d. Ruhestand wegen Dienstbeschädigung
19.2.40 als Verbindungs-Offizier zur Luftwaffe (Maj.z.V.)
x.2.41 Kdr. Lw.-Bau-Btl. 2./XIII
1941-42 Kdr. Lw.-Bau-Ers.-Btl. IV
1.5.42 OTL z.V.
x.x.43 z. Flieger-Ers.-Btl. III versetzt
28.6.43 z. III. Lw.-Feldkorps kdrt. (Pi.Fhr. b. 9.Lw.Felddiv., später b. Armee-Pi.Sch. Tolmatschewo u. Perau)
1943-44 Lehrgang a.d. Festungspionierschule Berlin-Karlshorst
31.3.44 entlassen

[docarchiv]

Hello,

could you tell us all you know about von Sailer, please! Don't forget the man I started with!

Kind regards

docarchiv